D&D 5E Merging the Sorcerer and Warlock

[DND_Reborn]

Well, for one thing, Bard isn't a new class. It's been around since 1e.

It has always been billed as a dabbler in spells (like everything else) though still full powered caster (i.e. CL) and that it was in actuality casting either Druid or Wizard spells depending on the edition, so overlap is expected there.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I could care less about the spell list overlap. For me, it's about the fluff of the classes and the source of their powers and their mechanical differentiation that matters.

While it's nice to have a few spells here and there that are different, it's probably the least important aspect.

Oh, stop being so nit-picky.

Sure, "Bard" was in 1E, at the back, and most groups IME never used it. In the decades I played 1E, I saw only ONE bard played the 1E way.

So, we saw a more mainstream into in 2E, and as I said, I label it among the "newer" classes.

Regardless of how you do it, if everyone does the same thing, why bother? It is why many people argue against other classes gaining more attacks for DPR. Fighter: more attacks, Paladin: smite, Barbarian: rage, Rogue: sneak attack, Ranger: umm... hunter's mark???, Monk: flurry and such I suppose.

I know a similar idea was applied to spells in 5E. Spontaneous casting, prepared casting, warlock short rests, but it still doesn't feel like enough when the vast majority of spells can be cast by more than one caster. At least, for me...

If people are discussing trying to merge two casters classes, I don't blame them.

I do agree in many ways the eldritch invocations seem more appropriate to sorcerers and metamagic for warlocks. Without something unique, why bother?

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

While it's nice to have a few spells here and there that are different, it's probably the least important aspect.

I believe it would be great to have a clearer design on spell lists, and I’d opt for a kind of three-layered division, in the following way:

First layer are the “universal” spells. All casting classes should be able to access them somehow. Detect magic is the best example of a spell on this layer.

Second layer are the role-filling spells. If a class is supposed to fill a given role within the party, it should get it. That’s where healing should be, together with stuff like hunter’s mark/hex. Different classes could get different role-filling spells. The sorcerer could get a fire breath while the wizard gets fireball, for example, both intended to fill the role of area damage.

Third layer are the class-defining spells. This is where the warlock gets to bestow curses while the bard sings magic into existence. Ranger shots and paladin smites should also dwell here. Polymorph is a good example of a spell that the rules give to a lot of classes, but that I believe should be class-defining (though I admit to have no opinion about where it should be), and only wizards should be able to cast magic missile.

I think this approach would help make the lines between the different casting classes less blurred.

 

[Salthorae]

Sure, "Bard" was in 1E, at the back, and most groups IME never used it. In the decades I played 1E, I saw only ONE bard played the 1E way.

That was more to do with how hard it was to become a Bard more than anything else I bet.

If people are discussing trying to merge two casters classes, I don't blame them.

Me either. And these are the two that are best to merge IMO if you're going to do it.

I'm torn because I feel like thematically merging warlock into sorcerer makes more sense. I.e. a patron effectively turns you into a sorcerer by empowering you with magic from the Pact.

But mechanically merging the sorcerer into warlock makes more sense because I love the unique structure of the warlock class.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think there's also the idea that more class specific spells might help the distinction between class.
Give more chaos (aka random), breath, transformation spells to the sorcerer.
Give more creepy/weird-a** spells to the warlock.

and dont you go giving'em to the wizard!

 

[Salthorae]

and dont you go giving'em to the wizard!

The problem there is the wizard is the classic archetype of arcane magic.

Not giving the wizard spells just to help differentiate the other classes is a pretty weak way of making those classes unique. Sorcerer/warlock are the new kids on the arcane block and need to set themselves apart.

How they access and manipulate those magics should be what differentiates the sorcerer/warlock.

I honestly think they do a good job of doing that actually with Warlocks. Different Pact Magic/Mystic Arcanum, short rest refresh, fixed level slots are great at setting them apart.

Sorcerer's metamagic are good but I think to really make them different they could use more options at more levels and more points to use them.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

The problem there is the wizard is the classic archetype of arcane magic.

Not giving the wizard spells just to help differentiate the other classes is a pretty weak way of making those classes unique. sorcerer/warlock are the new kids on the arcane block and need to set themselves apart.

How they access and manipulate those magics should be what differentiates the sorcerer/warlock. I honestly think they do a good job of doing that actually with Warlocks different Pact Magic/Mystic Arcanum, short rest refresh, fixed level slots are great at this. Sorcerer's metamagic are good but I think to really make them different they could use more options at more levels and more points to use them.

Indeed, class features should be the thing that differentiate classes the most. That's one of the reason I give my sorcerers spell points (merged with sorcery points) instead. It helps a lot.

And with more metamagic/sorcery point features coming our way (if they make it trough playtest), I think sorcerer will finally be the thing it should have been (in my mind, that is)

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Being of an evil mind, I think all the sorcerers should be like the wild magic sorcerer, but with a dragon table, a storm table, a celestial table, a fiend table, a shadow table, etc. to use instead of the wild magic table, and add that using your highest level spell slot automatically triggers a role on the table.

Edit: it should be straightforward but for spell points, any time you use the number of spell points equal to the level of the highest level spell you know, you trigger the table.

 

[TwoSix]

Yea, I've though the same thing for a while. Use the sorcerer as a base, add a 10th level subclass feature. Add a new 18th level feature to warlock patrons, and a 10th level feature to sorcerer bloodlines. Gain invocations as a warlock, make the different metamagics an invocation choice, and have sorcery points recharge on a short rest. Take out EB and its associated invocations.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The early playtest Sorcerer not only used a Spell Point mechanic, but had Heritage abilities that could either be activated by spending points or activated automatically after you had spent a certain number of points that day. It was more complex and unusual, but certainly give the Sorcerer a much more distinct identity in relation to the Wizard.

I didn't participate in the playtest but I have looked over some of the materials after the fact.

The crowd (it was like 40 or 60 players) at the FLGS at the time was not very into the playtest, but before it got down to me struggling to keep one Encounters-legal playtest table going, we did get to test out the Sorcerer, and I recall getting some very positive feedback.
I also recall asking if they'd filled out a survey, and, as usual, being disappointed with the answer. ;(