messy's crunchy simplified class system (work in progress, but PEACH anyway)

[messy]

allo

ok, first off, i need to say a few things about this post-

1. most of this is my own ideas and some ideas from a couple of related threads (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=199066&page=1&pp=40 for example), but with little playtesting support.
2. i've made some rather harsh judgements regarding base classes in an attempt to strip them down to their most basic qualities. please understand that i mean no offense to your favorite class. this is all an experiment in simplifying the d&d game.
3. i'm only including base classes from the player's handbook in this experiment.
4. this is a work in progress, and i welcome any thoughts or opinions.
5. this system is intended for a low-magic game.

theory- when it comes down to it, all base classes are variations of the cleric, fighter, rogue, or wizard. therefore, all classes other than these 4 are unnecessary.

let's look at each class-
bard- rogue with some wizard abilities. therefore, the bard is unnecessary.
barbarian- fighter with rage and other abilities. unnecessary.
cleric- represents the archetypal divine spellcaster. the cleric stays.
druid- cleric with "natury" spells and abilities. can be reproduced as a cleric with skill, feat, and spell choices. therefore, unnecessary.
fighter- represents the archetypal weapon-wielder, armor-wearer, and damage-taker. the fighter stays.
monk- an asian-flavored rogue/fighter hybrid with lots of strange abilities. fluff makes it an anachronism, crunch makes it unnecessary.
paladin- fighter with divine abilities and flavor. unnecessary.
ranger- fighter with rogue skills and "natury" abilities and flavor. unnecessary.
rogue- represents the archetypal sneaky, social, skill-monkey (that expression always make me chuckle ). the rogue stays.
sorcerer- IMO, the appeal of this class was always the spontaneous casting. but when it comes to arcane spellcasting, the intelligence-based wizard is the archetype.
wizard- a no-brainer. the wizard stays.

npc classes-
adept- strange cleric/wizard hybrid. unnecessary.
aristocrat- commoner with money. unnecessary.
commoner- good for joe-peasent and jane-peasent. the commoner stays.
expert- commoner with skills. unnecessary.
warrior- a weak fighter. unnecessary.

so, we are left with 4 base classes -- cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard. coincidentally, aren't these the 4 original classes from 1st edition? also, the commoner can be used for non-adventuring types.

if a player wants to attempt to replicate one of the other base classes, he/she can do so through skill and feat selection. lots of the class abilities unique to those other classes (animal companion, bard music, smite evil, etc.) can be recreated as feats. to help with this custom character-building, let's eliminate class skill lists and cross-class skills.

moving on to class construction and balance. i don't quite buy into the whole "dead levels" thing, but i'm going to humor those who do and rebuild the base classes with no dead levels, just so there are no complaints.

all characters gain the following-
odd levels- feat.
even levels- ability increase.

individual classes-

cleric-
odd levels- new spell level.
even levels- divine energy (at will as standard action, 2 points of healing to allies and damage to undead per even level, Will save for half, DC 10 + half Cleric level + Charisma modifier).

fighter-
odd levels- fighter training (+1 initiative at level 1 and every 6 levels thereafter, +1 dodge bonus to armor class at level 3 and every 6 levels thereafter, +1 damage at level 5 and every 6 levels thereafter).
even levels- bonus fighter feat (so essentially, the fighter gets one feat per level).

rogue-
odd levels- sneak attack +1d6.
even levels- rogue training (level 2- evasion, level 4- uncanny dodge, level 6- improved uncanny dodge, level 8- trap sense +4, level 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20- rogue special ability or bonus feat).

wizard-
odd levels- new spell level, arcane blast +1d6 (at will, ranged touch attack, no range increment).
even levels- continuous mage armor equal to half class level (+1 at level 2, +2 at level 4, +3 at level 6, and so on).

notes-
i've always been skeptical about giving more feats and ability increases, but in a low-magic game, i think it's appropriate.
the cleric's divine energy begins at level 2 to avoid a 1-level dip giving a character unlimited healing.
the fighter training was geared towards giving the fighter generic bonuses that would be beneficial regardless of the fighter's style (power, finesse, archery, whatever).
the arcane blast started out as a variation of a magister ability (from arcana evolved), then became a feat, then finally turned into a class ability that is nearly identical to the warlock's eldritch blast.

balance-
base attack bonus- weak is worth 0 points, medium 1 point, strong 2 points.
saves- weak 0 points, strong 1 point.
weapon proficiency- none or few 0 points, simple 1 point, simple and martial 2 points.
armor proficiency- none 0 points, some 1 point, all 2 points.
significant class ability- 2 points.

so the rewritten classes come out like this-
cleric- 8 (medium bab, two good saves, simple weapons, all armor, spellcasting).
fighter- 11 (strong bab, one good save, all weapons, all armor, fighter training, bonus feats).
rogue- 7 (medium bab, one good save, simple weapons, light armor, sneak attack, rogue training).
wizard 7 (weak bab, one good save, few weapons, no armor, spellcasting, arcane blast, mage armor).

who says fighters are too weak?

again, this is an ongoing project, and any feedback is welcome.

messy

 

[Ecureuil_Diabolique]

Just wondering. If this is a low magic game, why are spellcasters just as powerful?

I would slow down the progression and probably cap the spell levels at 7-8 if it's low magic.

Nonetheless, nice idea but I would type up all the classes just so it looks nice.

 

[Arkhandus]

Wierd balancing system - it doesn't work. And completely disregards the power and flexibility from spellcasting. Doesn't really seem low-magic to me either, if that's what you're trying for.

Cleric's Divine Energy - you need a range limit and/or area of effect for this, and mention of whether or not it requires line of effect (does the cleric have to be able to see their allies in order to affect them, or not?). Otherwise the cleric can heal everyone in the world, and harm all undead in the world, at will, every round.....

Spell Levels - Do casters start with access to both 0-level and 1st-level spells at 1st-level? Also, what do they get at 19th-level, if anything (besides the wizard's Arcane Blast)? And this set-up still favors spellcasters anyway, since spells are rather powerful and versatile.


Also - the wizard's Arcane Blast needs at least a maximum range limit. As it stands they could zap a bird out of the air from 20 miles away if they just spotted it, or stand atop a mountain and zap a village on the horizon until it's dust. You also didn't bother mentioning if the ability is spell-like or supernatural or something else, and what kind of action it takes to use, or if it's treated like a normal weapon attack or something for purposes of attack rate.

And - it makes the wizard rather more powerful than the fighter, drastically so. 1st-level wizard will easily hit a 1st-level fighter and knock him out in 2-5 Arcane Blasts from a distance, and a 10th-level wizard would knock out a 10th-level fighter in the same number of blasts from a safe distance. By the upper levels a wizard will be able to blast apart adamantine walls, or mountain sides, without much trouble, and could do so at will.

Fighters don't get access to Protection from Arrows, Shield, Mage Armor, Stoneskin, or other spells that a wizard could use to guard against the fighter's ranged attacks. So fighters are completely vulnerable to the Arcane Blast, while wizards are able to very effectively shield themselves from most ranged attacks a fighter could throw at them.

 

[messy]

Wierd balancing system - it doesn't work. And completely disregards the power and flexibility from spellcasting. Doesn't really seem low-magic to me either, if that's what you're trying for.

i'm going for simplicity, also.

Cleric's Divine Energy - you need a range limit and/or area of effect for this, and mention of whether or not it requires line of effect (does the cleric have to be able to see their allies in order to affect them, or not?). Otherwise the cleric can heal everyone in the world, and harm all undead in the world, at will, every round.....

good points

area of effect: 30-foot radius of caster.

as for healing everyone at will, i like it because it eliminates the need to rest after every single battle :\

as for the damaging undead every round, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount of damage... for example, a 10th level cleric can do 10 points of damage to all undead within 30 feet each round. is that too much?

Spell Levels - Do casters start with access to both 0-level and 1st-level spells at 1st-level?

yes

Also, what do they get at 19th-level, if anything (besides the wizard's Arcane Blast)?

nothing

And this set-up still favors spellcasters anyway, since spells are rather powerful and versatile.

well, i've increased the power of fighters, too

Also - the wizard's Arcane Blast needs at least a maximum range limit. As it stands they could zap a bird out of the air from 20 miles away if they just spotted it, or stand atop a mountain and zap a village on the horizon until it's dust.

good point! maybe i'll make it 30 feet (like warlock's eldritch blast).

You also didn't bother mentioning if the ability is spell-like or supernatural or something else, and what kind of action it takes to use, or if it's treated like a normal weapon attack or something for purposes of attack rate.

like the warlock's eldritch blast, can only be used once per round, whatever that makes it

And - it makes the wizard rather more powerful than the fighter, drastically so. 1st-level wizard will easily hit a 1st-level fighter and knock him out in 2-5 Arcane Blasts from a distance, and a 10th-level wizard would knock out a 10th-level fighter in the same number of blasts from a safe distance. By the upper levels a wizard will be able to blast apart adamantine walls, or mountain sides, without much trouble, and could do so at will.

isn't that what the warlock can currently do?

Fighters don't get access to Protection from Arrows, Shield, Mage Armor, Stoneskin, or other spells that a wizard could use to guard against the fighter's ranged attacks. So fighters are completely vulnerable to the Arcane Blast, while wizards are able to very effectively shield themselves from most ranged attacks a fighter could throw at them.

well, fighters get dodge bonuses. that will help

thanks for the feedback, ark

messy

 

[Ecureuil_Diabolique]

good point! maybe i'll make it 30 feet (like warlock's eldritch blast).

Eldritch blast is 60ft, correct?

 

[Arkhandus]

as for healing everyone at will, i like it because it eliminates the need to rest after every single battle :\

as for the damaging undead every round, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount of damage... for example, a 10th level cleric can do 10 points of damage to all undead within 30 feet each round. is that too much?

Never said that. I don't care if people want to eliminate resting between battles, if that's how they wanna run it.

well, i've increased the power of fighters, too

Eh, you seem to have removed their 1st-level bonus feat, and given them a few minor bonuses at odd-numbered levels. You also gave wizards the Arcane Blast and perpetual Mage Armor, so that doesn't really even out; the fighter's still vastly outclassed (and the wizard gets more Base Attack Bonus than the fighter gets dodge bonuses, so the wizard actually gets better at hitting the fighter consistently with touch attacks at higher levels).

Also, warlocks lack the spellcasting of wizards; they give up a lot of flexibility and raw power for the sake of their never-ending, infinite use, nonstop Eldritch Blasts. A wizard can do more damage with a spell, but only once in a while, whereas the warlock can keep blasting all day long. This version of the wizard gains much of the warlock's power in that regard, but doesn't give up anything in return (a warlock's invocations aren't nearly so powerful or versatile as wizard spells, though useable more often).

So, just pointing out that this Arcane Blast beefs up wizardly power more than your other changes beef up fighters, and wizards were already the more powerful/versatile class between the two. Weaken the Arcane Blast and boost the fighter a bit more, or just give the fighter a lot more goodies.

Good luck!

 

[Felnar]

what didnt you like about Unearthed Arcana's "Generic Classes" variant?