Metamagic feats-Stacking?

[Gideon]

So this might be stupid, but...

Can you use the same metemagic feat on a spell?

So for instance, i use empower spell on a fireball making it cast at 50% higher damage and a 5th level spell. Can I DOUBLY Empower the Fireball making it cast at 100% damage and a 7th level spell?

Hope that is clear.

Thanks.

 

[Tiberius]

The PHB says that you can use multiple metamagic feats on a spell. It does not make a statement one way or the other as to whether you can stack metamagic feats like that, IIRC. Many people interpret it as you can, hence we see people running around with double-empowered stat buffs. I don't see things that way, so I disallow multiple uses of a given metamagic feat on a spell. Ultimately, it's your call as the DM.

-Tiberius

 

[Crothian]

The question is clear, the answer is not. I think one can, but I've heard supposrt for both sides.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I thought I read somewhere that 3.5 clarifies this one, and in the negative. Anyone remember that?

IMG, I have not had a player do this yet. The 9th level wizard just picked up Empower Spell and always has an empowered lighting bolt prepared, but it will be some time before he can double empower it. I will most likely let him if he wants to do that.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

A doubly empowered fireball takes a 7-th level slot, and will do about 10 X 3.5 X 2 = 70 points of damage. Compare it to a maximized fireball (60 points of damage, 6th-level slot) and it doesn't seem too unbalanced.

Also, compare a doubly empowered fireball to other 7th-level spells, and its not too diffrent:
- Delayed blast fireball (~ 60 points of damage)
- prismatic spray (~ uh, lots of nasty stuff)
- finger of death
- limited wish

Is a doubly empowered fireball unbalancing? i don't think so. Is it legal? i've always assumed it is...

Maitre D

 

[LokiDR]

There is no reason you can not apply the same metamagic feat to a spell in the rules. The rules even state that you may apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell.

 

[Tiberius]

There is no reason you can not apply the same metamagic feat to a spell in the rules. The rules even state that you may apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell.

That's just it. It says you may apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell. It does not say that you may apply one metamagic feat multiple times.

The discussion, I think, comes down to how you view the language in the PHB. Do you believe that book presents the options available to the characters, or that the characters are omnipotent in their base state and limited by the text in the rulebooks?

I think the book presents options, and as such if it does not explicitly say that they may apply a particular metamagic feat multiple times to a spell, then they may not.

-Tiberius

 

[LokiDR]

The rules do not state you may use telekinisis to lift yourself up. Does this mean that you can not do it?

The rules can not possibly present every option. Players are expected to try interesting combinations as it provides a more interesting experience.

What is boils down to is that you can apply multiple metamagic feats to a spell, and empower is a metamagic feat.

 

[Tiberius]

The rules do not state you may use telekinisis to lift yourself up. Does this mean that you can not do it?

The rules can not possibly present every option. Players are expected to try interesting combinations as it provides a more interesting experience.

What is boils down to is that you can apply multiple metamagic feats to a spell, and empower is a metamagic feat.

Well, I'm afraid we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I would point out, though, that your telekinesis example is ill-chosen. According to the SRD for telekinesis:

Sustained Force: A sustained force moves a creature or object weighing up to 25 pounds per caster level up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect against itself or against an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with SR.
This version of the spell lasts up to 1 round per caster level, but it ends if the character ceases concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or both. An object cannot be moved beyond the character's range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If the character ceases concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.

If the caster of the spell is a creature or an object, then the caster may lift himself with the spell.

-Tiberius

 

[Quixon]

That's just it. It says you may apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell. It does not say that you may apply one metamagic feat multiple times.

The discussion, I think, comes down to how you view the language in the PHB. Do you believe that book presents the options available to the characters, or that the characters are omnipotent in their base state and limited by the text in the rulebooks?

I think the book presents options, and as such if it does not explicitly say that they may apply a particular metamagic feat multiple times to a spell, then they may not.

-Tiberius

Actually it DOES say you can apply the same Meta-magic feat more than once.

Go to the WotC page and check the Official FAQ-page 22. It explicitly says you can apply the same Metamagic more than once-you just add the levels up-so a Double Empowered Fireball does +100% Damage and uses a 7th level slot.

Most feats are pointless to use more than once-but Empower and Extend can be applied as many times as you can-as long as you got the slot to cover the adjusted cost.