MIC: Ironward Diamond....Overpowered?

[Mistwell]

Not having MIC, I'm not sure if it's covered... but is there anything preventing you putting the DR 5/- Ironward Crystal on +1 Heavy Armor that's been Magic Vestmented up to a +3 enhancement bonus?

-Hyp.

It repeatedly uses the word "actual" bonus. I'd say a temporary bonus is not an actual bonus, similar to an effective bonus not being an actual bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It repeatedly uses the word "actual" bonus.

Cool. Looks like the designers thought of that one too

Unless they meant to distinguish an actual enhancement bonus (which Magic Vestment provides for a limited time) from a market price modifier...

-Hyp.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

Note that while I was involved in the book, I had nothing to do with this particular item.

I strongly suspect it's an answer to "What does a high-level fighter do?" builds. The DR 5/-- crystal is restricted to heavy armor. For the most part, it's only going to get used by fighters, paladins and clerics -- and if clerics use it they aren't boosting their spellcasting ability somehow.

I've now seen these crystals in play. Not only are they not unbalancing the game so far, there's some talk among players of selling them. DR 1/-- just isn't that useful to the light armor crowd, and even the heavy armor folk are balancing the value against half the cost of a +4 Con item, which grants similar hit point bonuses (at 15th it's +30 hp, but you don't have to get whacked 6 times for the benefit and they work against things like spells), and adds to Fort saves and Con skills.

I suspect the popular "tank" build which tends to fall apart at mid to high level just became viable again, but not overpoweringly so.

Of course a big part of the value is based on how often you get into fights in one day in your games. And that's difficult to quantify.

For games where I think 50 hp is too many for the cost, I'll just say it stops working after 40, or 30.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

This looks like a slightly weaker version of Stone Skin.

On the plus side:
Always on
Refreshes the next day
Stacks with other DR
Cannot be defeated by Adamantium
Cannot easily be dispelled, as most "Stone Skin, N per day" effects would be

On the minus side:
Must be applied to +3 armor
DR 5
50 point absorption limit (instead of 90+)

I can easily see my Wizard buying 4 of these and handing them to his dear meatshields as a token of friendship. They would happy. And I would not be spending precious 4th level spell slots for Stone Skin. A single 4th level spell slot is roughly worth 16,000gp (Pearl of Power), after all.

And I do think that a Lesser Stone Skin that accomplishes the above effect would make a reasonable 4th level spell, if it had no costly spell component.

 

[Nifft]

A single 4th level spell slot is roughly worth 16,000gp (Pearl of Power), after all.

Or it's worth 700 gp (4th level Scroll); 950 gp with stoneskin's material component included.

Cheers, -- N

PS: Don't forget the other goodies that this one gets over stoneskin. Use-activation and duration of 1 day are both pretty sweet, and IMHO the effect balances out overall -- as a player, I'd happily accept a half-strength no-cost stoneskin that lasted all day, so I wouldn't have to waste an action at the start of combat.

 

[hong]

The really good one is the DR 3/- crystal, since that can be added to medium armour, and medium armour is usable by barbarians, and the DR stacks.

 

[Stalker0]

The really good one is the DR 3/- crystal, since that can be added to medium armour, and medium armour is usable by barbarians, and the DR stacks.

Also the DR 3/- crystal can be added to mithral fullplate, and virtually give you the effects of both adamantine and mithral armor.

 

[KarinsDad]

I strongly suspect it's an answer to "What does a high-level fighter do?" builds. The DR 5/-- crystal is restricted to heavy armor. For the most part, it's only going to get used by fighters, paladins and clerics -- and if clerics use it they aren't boosting their spellcasting ability somehow.

Which class a given item is not useful for is irrelevant. The fact that it is useful for any class should determine the cost of the item for the classes that will use it.

And, there are Barbarians and such walking around with Mithral Full Plate in games.

I've now seen these crystals in play. Not only are they not unbalancing the game so far, there's some talk among players of selling them. DR 1/-- just isn't that useful to the light armor crowd, and even the heavy armor folk are balancing the value against half the cost of a +4 Con item, which grants similar hit point bonuses (at 15th it's +30 hp, but you don't have to get whacked 6 times for the benefit and they work against things like spells), and adds to Fort saves and Con skills.

While this is true, you are comparing the cost of a +30 hp item with a +50 hp item. At 15th level, it is more compariable to a +6 Con item (45 hp) with limitations (i.e. no Fort save bonus and only works against physical attacks).

Granted, it should cost less than the +6 item since it does not work against most spells and is a gradual effect, but although it does not have the exact same utility, it has other benefits such as the ability to be replaced with a different crystal and it is still less that a quarter of the price: 8000 GP versus 36000 GP. Nor does it prevent a character from using it and using a + Con item at the same time. The protection stacks.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Note that while I was involved in the book, I had nothing to do with this particular item.

Hey, you're the loot for less guy! I was just reading those two PDFs the other day; all the low cost items in the MIC made me think of your work, and I went and looked them up. What parts did you work on?

[on-topic edit] I agree that he comparison between the greater crystal and a +4 Con item is illuminating: the crystal doesn't provide a bonus to fort saves, doesn't work against non-weapon attacks, and doesn't help much against one big attack. I'd add that the hit points given by a Con boost can be reset by curative magic, which can happen between each battle; the crystal, however only resets once per day. On the other hand, as has been noted, the crystal stacks with a Con booster. The total hit points provided by the gem is more than the Con item would give; 50 vs 20 (for a 10th level character), but given the other factors I can't see that this is unwarranted.

I think it gives good value, but isn't overpowered.

 

[Deset Gled]

I think the biggest problem I have with this item is how it interacts with other items. It stacks with everything? It takes up no slot? You don't need to activate it?

All of the comparisons that I've seen in this thread are flawed because this item works with all of them. Sure, you can get bonus HP from a Con boosing item, but then you can throw this on top. Sure, you can cast Stoneskin, but then you can throw this on top. If anything, this item is closest to an Ioun stone, but it's impossible for an enemy to break/steal it (also, note that there is an Ioun stone that grants a +2 enhancement bonus to Con also costs 8000gp).

The fact that the only cost of this item is GP is what makes it so good. Make the item take up the amulet slot, remove the stacking (as normal with DR), and maybe make it a swift action to activate it, and I'll consider it. Until then, I give it a huge thumbs down.