Mike Mearls comments on design

The Diplomacy skill and similar abilities are no more abusable than they are in 3e.

But the rules for diplomacy as is are completely unplayable. If you use the DMG tables for changing attitudes you can make people fanatic followers vastly to easily (ignoring the very existance of charm here for a moment), and if you don't, I'm just left eyeballing some sort of outcome that doesn't really have anything to do with the rules.

So saying they are 'no more abuseable' isn't particularly comforting because the rules are super mega hugely abuseable, or you just wing it in which case why waste my time with rules?

Seems sucktacular, I hope they fix it.
 

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BryonD said:
deleted for reasons of peace and brotherhood

My lord Byron...didn't you see Umbran and others ask you to cease and desist? Normally I just ignore posts like yours, but for some reason I've failed my Will save in this situation.

Enough. We all beg of you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

The_Furious_Puffin said:
But the rules for diplomacy as is are completely unplayable.

Exactly – example of the problem with Diplomacy:


High level bard saunters up to Llolth –


The bard: ‘Hey, baby, that spider-web will look great rolled up in a ball next to my bed in the morning…’


*rolls insane Diplomacy check*


Llolth: ‘I like a man who's direct…’
 

MerricB said:
Personally, I believe that a lot of the tradeoffs will include areas of complexity that most people will enjoy shedding; this isn't to say that everyone will think it's an improvement!

One thing that I hope this edition promotes is the idea that you don't have to design an NPC exactly the same way as a PC to get a balanced and playable opponent; indeed, I'm not sure that the complex way we used in 3.5e actually worked the way it should have. NPC Challenge Ratings were notoriously unreliable...

Cheers!
Very possibly. I have never disputed this claim. What I have disputed is that this will clearly result in overall growth for the game. I have no doubt whatsoever that 4E will do well and 3x is a thing of the past. It would be absurd to even hint differently about 3x. But I don't believe that there are significant numbers people out there not playing 3X who are going to flock to 4E because it is a more simple game. If 4E never existed there would be new players who found 3E 12 months from now. Some of those would try it and leave and some would become gamers. 4E does exist and the same thing will happen for it. But who says more will stay? And who says that if more stay the added players will outnumber the people in your "not everyone" who are spending cash on 3E now but stop with 4e? Do you think that 12 months after 4E comes out it will have the same level of boom going that 3E did 12 months after it came out? I'm skeptical.

On your specific example, I have never supported CR in 3X. I mean, I love it as a concept for XP. But the implementation was terrible and never really got fixed. But that was because, as you say, it was so unreliable. If they want to make a more reliable system then make that the priority. Simplicity is not reliability.

Again, I'm not wasting my time here just to grind an axe. If I knew I was going to hate 4E I'd just leave. And if for some reason I was predetermined to hate 4E just for silly 3E devotion reasons, I'd just leave. What I want more than anything (in gaming at least) is to be overwhelmed by the coolness of 4E. And Mikes comments did help some in reducing my pessimism. But it is not a case of me expected everything to cater to me. If they make a game that creates lots of profits through a method that leaves me out, then they can listen to my complaints all the way to the bank, with my compliments. I don't resent them. But I'm still going to speak from my individual point of view. When I stop posting here, that will mean I have given up on 4E. And I still hope that by the time the PH comes out I am back to being one of the big 4E defenders here, as I was right after the announcement.
 

Wisdom Penalty said:
My lord Byron...didn't you see Umbran and others ask you to cease and desist? Normally I just ignore posts like yours, but for some reason I've failed my Will save in this situation.

Enough. We all beg of you.
No I did not see it. I apologize. Please remove my comments from your post. Thanks.
 

Steely Dan said:
Exactly – example of the problem with Diplomacy:


High level bard saunters up to Llolth –


The bard: ‘Hey, baby, that spider-web will look great rolled up in a ball next to my bed in the morning…’


*rolls insane Diplomacy check*


Llolth: ‘I like a man who's direct…’

Players are so cute when they only read the rules that they think are in their favor. You missed this important part of the skill description-

SRD said:
Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions).

Since when is Llolth going to give you a whole minute before she kills you? Diplomacy is only broken if the DM allows it to be so.
 


The_Furious_Puffin said:
But the rules for diplomacy as is are completely unplayable. If you use the DMG tables for changing attitudes you can make people fanatic followers vastly to easily (ignoring the very existance of charm here for a moment), and if you don't, I'm just left eyeballing some sort of outcome that doesn't really have anything to do with the rules.

So saying they are 'no more abuseable' isn't particularly comforting because the rules are super mega hugely abuseable, or you just wing it in which case why waste my time with rules?

Seems sucktacular, I hope they fix it.
Well, he said "no more abuseable" which still leaves the option of "less abuseable". :)
 

I think there's a formatting error.

In the following two paragraphs:

My honest opinion is that I see 4E actually stressing and emphasizing “coolness” and “combat effectiveness” over player input, thinking and role-playing –- not to mention that DM’s are more-or-less subtly manipulated into thinking that their “job” has become “easier” and requires less work and creative effort than ever before. For example, in 4E, DMs are “able to drop things out of the books” without any pre-play prep work -- is that cool or what? Somehow in my mind this translates as “fostering” or encouraging new DMs to be lazy –- maybe the idea behind this “design goal” is to lower the threshold of DMing, but I see it discouraging improvisation and thinking on a DM’s part (and these skills are –- in my opinion –- quite relevant to being a DM). James Wyatt’s first ‘Dungeoncraft’-article actually seemed to underline the point that the *setting* and *NPCs* are not very relevant –- just steal some ideas and get the ball rolling, and the PCs will take care of the rest. I’d call that “sloppy” DMing. Your own blog also contains a very telling example of this as you said that you don’t want to “waste” time in having to explain things to your players –- if that’s how you generally view DMing chores, I personally wouldn’t want to play in your campaigns (and this is my honest personal opinion/criticism and *not* meant as a deliberate “attack” –- hope you see the difference ). I wish to ask you some questions: it appears that your own “houseruled” version of 3E contains many mechanical aspects from 4E (monster “roles”, "simplified" special abilities, movement rate in ‘squares’, etc.) –- have you always played 3E in a more “simplified” way or did you “playtest” some 4E game mechanics in your recent 3E campaigns? Is 4E how Mike Mearls want to play D&D, or how the majority of us –- or a new generation of gamers -- want to play it? That is the central question here.

See, again, I have to turn that question around to you. I don't like putting a lot of detail into my campaign worlds, but you do. Which of us is right? The answer, to me, is neither, as long as we and our groups have fun.

The first should be from the original poster, and only the second Mearls' answer.
 


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