WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.

 

[Zardnaar]

That said, my last game of 5e D&D was about half a year before the pandemic when my partner bounced hard off of playing 5e D&D. Since that time, the two of us have played multiple games of Fantasy AGE, Dungeon World, Avatar Legends, Numenera, Fabula Ultima, and now Dragonbane. They have also expressed interest in playing some of the other books on the shelf, including CoC, Fate, and MotW. I like playing TTRPGs with my partner, but they have zero interest in 5e D&D, so as of now, my 5e 2014 books are the ones looking like expensive book ends. That's not me hating on 5e D&D. It's simply about playing games that gets my partner to the game table.


Which again sounds like a you problem in New Zealand that one that can be safely generalized from. That said, there are a lot of Kiwis and Aussies regularly playing online in (mostly) non-D&D games of another online TTRPG community where I am a member.

Moreover, digital copies of books exist. Maybe not for D&D 5e, but legal PDF copies do exist for many non-D&D games on DriveThruRPG and Itch.io. This sort of easy access kind of makes a lot of excuses about not being able to find books for running games pretty flimsy. And that has been true for about +15 years. Even when I have access to hard copies of books, I mostly use digital books on my laptop for running games anyway, as it's easier to search and reference while also saving table space.

And how do I use said PDFs? It's cheaper to buy the book than print it. No cheap PDF.

I don't gave a tablet or laptop. More money.

And if I had all that where do I find the players?

It's a social thing for ne as well I don't play D&D online either. Additionally most RPGs don't interest me in any way either.

So it's a heap of money I woukd struggle to find layers for and online play doesn't interest me.

 

[pemerton]

Moreover, digital copies of books exist. Maybe not for D&D 5e, but legal PDF copies do exist for many non-D&D games on DriveThruRPG and Itch.io. This sort of easy access kind of makes a lot of excuses about not being able to find books for running games pretty flimsy. And that has been true for about +15 years. Even when I have access to hard copies of books, I mostly use digital books on my laptop for running games anyway, as it's easier to search and reference while also saving table space.

I have pdfs too. They don't work very well as book ends!

 

[Aldarc]

And how do I use said PDFs? It's cheaper to buy the book than print it. No cheap PDF.

I don't gave a tablet or laptop. More money.

And if I had all that where do I find the players?

It's a social thing for ne as well I don't play D&D online either. Additionally most RPGs don't interest me in any way either.

So it's a heap of money I woukd struggle to find layers for and online play doesn't interest me.

Are these real questions from a real human being? And why snipe other non-D&D games as being expensive book ends just because you have no interest in these games, can't find players in person, refuse to play online, and don't buy tools that make these things easier? These are a lot of personal YOU problems that you are presenting as problems shared by everyone else. And it makes it sound like you are sniping non-D&D games just for the sake of sniping them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Are these real questions from a real human being? And why snipe other non-D&D games as being expensive book ends just because you have no interest in these games, can't find players in person, refuse to play online, and don't buy tools that make these things easier? These are a lot of personal YOU problems that you are presenting as problems shared by everyone else. And it makes it sound like you are sniping non-D&D games just for the sake of sniping them.

I've been clear it's only my experience. Island tax, no cheap Amazon, and very limited selection locally.

Basically it adds up to a waste of time buying anything else. Think the gamestore has Dune and PF2.

 

[Kromanjon]

I've been clear it's only my experience. Island tax, no cheap Amazon, and very limited selection locally.

Basically it adds up to a waste of time buying anything else. Think the gamestore has Dune and PF2.

You thought you were clear but this:

Most other RPGs aren't bad idk most of them. They're pointless buying though as you'll struggle with getting players.

Essentially they're an expensive book end.

Is the post I think people got stuck on, were you claim it´s a struggle getting players for other RPGs and that they are expensive book ends. This is not written in a way that conveys that the message is only relevant to you.

I'm sad to hear that you have these difficulties though as "other" RPGs are a great source of inspiration if nothing else. I do pay a lot as well (taxes, import duties, tolls) to get a hold of these book ends but I do get to play some of them and I always love reading them. The cost and hassle is more a question of resources and priorities. For instance right now my economy is at an all time low so I've had to abstain from buying RPG books at all since they are a luxury and luxury isn't anything I can afford right now.

 

[mearls]

One thing I think many people miss is that WOTC won the whole OGL catastrophe. They never worried about small publishers making small-run products. They wanted to get their percentage from high-selling products. And now they do. It's called D&D Beyond.

I disagree, but we might have different definitions of won.

The joke around TTRPG publishing is that the best way to make $1 million is to start with $2 million. While that's not strictly true - every business is risky, the folk knowledge around TTRPG business practices is mostly inaccurate - it does cast a spotlight on a key part of TTRPGs.

People make these games because they're fun to work on. Passion drives publication.

The OGL debacle took the air out of that tire. Is anyone excited about making 5.5 content? I think the answer in the market of ideas has largely been no. Creators are opting to make their own systems.

Personally, were I to do any 5.5 material myself I'd publish it as a complete game. To begin with, that's just good business, but we're also in a world where the OGL shows that WotC is making decisions for itself. Why build a business plan around them as a partner?

Even Ray's explanation for why 5.5 exists sets a bad precedent. If they're upending the ecosystem for internal business reasons, at a time when the game is still growing, how can you trust that 5.5 will still be supported in 3 years? Does any publisher want to hitch their wagon to that?

 

[Parmandur]

I disagree, but we might have different definitions of won.

The joke around TTRPG publishing is that the best way to make $1 million is to start with $2 million. While that's not strictly true - every business is risky, the folk knowledge around TTRPG business practices is mostly inaccurate - it does cast a spotlight on a key part of TTRPGs.

People make these games because they're fun to work on. Passion drives publication.

The OGL debacle took the air out of that tire. Is anyone excited about making 5.5 content? I think the answer in the market of ideas has largely been no. Creators are opting to make their own systems.

Personally, were I to do any 5.5 material myself I'd publish it as a complete game. To begin with, that's just good business, but we're also in a world where the OGL shows that WotC is making decisions for itself. Why build a business plan around them as a partner?

Even Ray's explanation for why 5.5 exists sets a bad precedent. If they're upending the ecosystem for internal business reasons, at a time when the game is still growing, how can you trust that 5.5 will still be supported in 3 years? Does any publisher want to hitch their wagon to that?

I dunno, my social media still seems to be full of new 5E 3rd party material. Some creative may be more or less burned out, but that doesn't shift the market itself.

 

[mearls]

I dunno, my social media still seems to be full of new 5E 3rd party material. Some creative may be more or less burned out, but that doesn't shift the market itself.

The downshift in DMs Guild content might be part of a larger trend.

OTOH, as I'm working on my own stuff I am looking at ways to port things over to D&D. I think the bigger picture, at least for me, is that I'd rather lead with something I can control, even if it is smaller, then find ways to port it over to D&D.

As an example, in the game I am working on classes each have a distinct action economy. I could refine that in my own game, then use what I learned to create new D&D classes.

 

[occam]

Then you definitely have selective viewing when non-D&D games get regularly trashed here. There are people who regularly derail discussions of non-D&D games here and call them dysfunctional games, not true roleplaying games, or badwrongfun.

It's possible; I don't read every thread. I would genuinely appreciate being pointed to examples of non-D&D-focused threads being disrupted by D&D proponents for the sole purpose of criticizing other games.

 

[SlyFlourish]

I disagree, but we might have different definitions of won.

The joke around TTRPG publishing is that the best way to make $1 million is to start with $2 million. While that's not strictly true - every business is risky, the folk knowledge around TTRPG business practices is mostly inaccurate - it does cast a spotlight on a key part of TTRPGs.

People make these games because they're fun to work on. Passion drives publication.

The OGL debacle took the air out of that tire. Is anyone excited about making 5.5 content? I think the answer in the market of ideas has largely been no. Creators are opting to make their own systems.

Personally, were I to do any 5.5 material myself I'd publish it as a complete game. To begin with, that's just good business, but we're also in a world where the OGL shows that WotC is making decisions for itself. Why build a business plan around them as a partner?

Even Ray's explanation for why 5.5 exists sets a bad precedent. If they're upending the ecosystem for internal business reasons, at a time when the game is still growing, how can you trust that 5.5 will still be supported in 3 years? Does any publisher want to hitch their wagon to that?

Ghostfire Gaming just ran a near-million-dollar Kickstarter for Grim Hollow Transformed not only advertising it as compatible with D&D 2024 but even their D&D Beyond integration (which is pretty wild). This is pretty much exactly what WOTC said they wanted with the OGL 1.1 – the only difference being that Ghostfire doesn't have to pay for an OGL license but WOTC does get a cut of Grim Hollow Transformed sold on D&D Beyond.

Right now there's no clear indication how WOTC chooses partners for publishing to D&D Beyond but it's pretty clear they choose products that already proved themselves as high-dollar projects. That makes sense, of course. It costs them money to do the conversions and they're spending their own marketing efforts to market other peoples' products.

My point is, publishing products from other publishers on D&D Beyond seems really close to what WOTC described when they talked about how the OGL 1.1 was going to work.