Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

WotC's Mike Mearls has been asking for opinions on how psionics should be treated in D&D 5th Edition. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that he'd hinted that he might be working on something, and this pretty much seals the deal. He asked yesterday "Agree/Disagree: The flavor around psionics needs to be altered to allow it to blend more smoothly into a traditional fantasy setting", and then followed up with some more comments today.

"Thanks for all the replies! Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots. One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc. But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.

One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."

 

[steeldragons]

Steeldragons, your class is definitely heading in the right direction. Some brief thoughts:
* There doesn't seem to be an equivalent to 6th-9th level powers, although Collective Cognition and some of the specialty capstones come close. Maybe when you reach 5 ranks in one of the disciplines, it could also unlock a couple of higher-level powers that become available when the psychic reaches a certain level. For example, Heal could have the requirement of 5 ranks in the metabolic discipline and 13th level psychic.

This would seem to add an additional layer of complexity to using the psychic powers...and I really wouldn't want to do that. You're already keeping track of 3 different "layers" of powers. A few of the 5rank powers are, actually 6-9th level [spell] abilities (I might not have gone up to 9 in the interest of not becoming "broken/op'd").

What is it you mean/think should be there? What is a 6th-9th level level power? Just effects that duplicate 6th-9th level spell effects? I could add more power choices into the 4 and 5 rank suites? As the ranks are accumulated, you would be getting your 4 rank at 7th level, your 5 rank at 9th. After that then, you're kind just accumulating power uses/day and discipline abilities. Those aren't "enough", you mean?

* Any kind of healing spell should not be at-will (Cure Wounds, Heal)--does this class use the common spell slots table to activate powers?

It's not. At 1 rank (which you would have at 1st level), you could put that rank in Metabolics and gain access to Resistance, Jump and Cure Wounds (I originally had Spare the Dying with CW at 2 ranks, but I was being nice. ). Those 3 powers can be used 1 [the psychic's level] + Int. mod. times per [edit: Sorry. per "long rest" not, necessarily, "day"/edit]. Let's say 3. So 4 times per long rest...Your Talents are all still at will, so you always have those. At 2nd level, you'll get whatever abilities you get from your Discipline, at least one of which is also at will. So you are never without SOME things/choices to do. Just not, necessarily your "metabolic powers."

If you want/need to use a power more often than that you are kinda SOL until 3rd level when 1) you would have 6 uses per long rest (3 levels + [hypothetical] 3 Int. mod) for these powers, and be able to use the Overburn feature to "burn" Constitution points for additional uses.

But you always have your at will "Talents" to fall back on and, by 3rd level, whatever your 2nd level Discipline features are.

* What's the advantage of being able to maintain concentration with an Int check? Are you meant to use either Int or Con, whichever is better, or do you get the Int check first and only have to roll Con if that fails?

Presumably the Psychic PC would have an Int higher than their Con...so it's an "easier" check to make to maintain your concentration. If you/your DM then decides you can make the normal "Concentration check" after you've tried the Int. on, that's fine, I guess. OR, if you don't have a higher Int than Con, then as DM could conceivably allow that instead. The point of the Mental Focus power is that you can/should be able to sustain multiple attacks and still maintain your concentration...via/through your advanced Int. ...least that was my thinking.

 

[fuindordm]

... A few of the 5rank powers are, actually 6-9th level [spell] abilities (I might not have gone up to 9 in the interest of not becoming "broken/op'd").

What is it you mean/think should be there? What is a 6th-9th level level power? Just effects that duplicate 6th-9th level spell effects? I could add more power choices into the 4 and 5 rank suites? As the ranks are accumulated, you would be getting your 4 rank at 7th level, your 5 rank at 9th. Is that then, you're kind just accumulating power uses/day and discipline abilities. Those aren't "enough", you mean?

No, they're enough, I was just suggesting a little more granularity. For example, if we saw a 9th level spell that would be really appropriate as a psionic power, then we could add it to the table under rank 5 but also add an extra level prerequisite to that power.

Alternatively, give each discipline one "Grand Science" that unlocks with 5 ranks, and is usable 1/day above and beyond the normal mental power budget (similar to the Warlock's major arcana).

But neither might be necessary, I was just thinking aloud about another design parameter that could be used while balancing the class.

Those 3 powers can be used 1 [the psychic's level] + Int. mod. times per day. Let's say 3. So 4 times per long rest...Your Talents are all still at will, so you always have those. At 2nd level, you'll get whatever abilities you get from your Discipline, at least one of which is also at will. So you are never without SOME things/choices to do. Just not, necessarily your "metabolic powers."

Thanks, I didn't understand that the duration note under "Using Mental Powers" was meant to be a total limit on the use of all powers. I thought it was just the maximum duration that you could sustain any given power, and I was looking for something else in the writeup.

So your mental ranks basically increase your known powers (but you have to specialize to keep up with your companions!), and you have Level + Int bonus rounds of mental powers, TOTAL, per day--barring cannibalizing your body. I like the fact that you burn Con and not HP, but we should be wary of Psychic overburn followed by Cleric restoration. (Exhaustion is also a good limiting factor, and maybe it is enough actually without taking Con damage).

Overall, the mental ranks + very limited total duration on mental powers doesn't feel quite up to par with a full caster. Maybe like a 2/3 caster? It needs playtesting of course but I feel we could be a little more generous with both, to benchmark well against a wizard or sorcerer at mid levels.

It could also be interesting to give them a ki point budget similar to the monk, so that the monk and psion feel mechanically like they're using similar power sources. The monk makes a good benchmark too for judging metabolic powers.

Presumably the Psychic PC would have an Int higher than their Con...so it's an "easier" check to make to maintain your concentration. If you/your DM then decides you can make the normal "Concentration check" after you've tried the Int. on, that's fine, I guess. OR, if you don't have a higher Int than Con, then as DM could conceivably allow that instead. The point of the Mental Focus power is that you can/should be able to sustain multiple attacks and still maintain your concentration...via/through your advanced Int. ...least that was my thinking.

They will, but it might only be a point or two higher. I'd rather they get a more generous benefit, like Advantage on Con checks to maintain concentration (maybe limited to x/short rest, since they already have proficiency).

Thanks for putting so much effort into your write-up. It's always easier to debate a concrete proposal than to discuss generalities.

Ben

 

[steeldragons]

This is close to one of the variations I've had in my head during this conversation. I like it because 1) it's markedly different from casters, 2) it provides thematic structure that's easy to expand, and 3) still balanced with the 5E mechanic (or could be, with some play-testing).

Cool. Thanks.

I'm not enamored with it because 1) it's still fairly limited in scale (not complete, which may be the difference between beta and RTM) and 2) it feels like psions would either end up very narrow ponies or broad enough to be very samey.

Well...and I thought about that...the fact is, they could be either (narrow or broad) but that is, ultimately, a choice for the player to make for their character. If I'm going to play a "psychic" character, I want to be Prof. X or Jean Grey...a "carnival fortuneteller" or a courtly "Seer" advisor. I like my archetypes "tight", for lack of a better adjective. Others who prefer a "psion" character might scatter their ranks all over the place and have the teleporting, mind reading, shapeshifting, telekinetic blaster and have a ball. In designing a class (and sub-classes) my aim is not to deliver JUST what I want out of it, but what as many people as possible, conceivably but realistically, could want to do with it...even if I would never play "that guy."

So the fact that you see the Psychic presented could go either way, for me, is a feature not a bug.

 

[Remathilis]

Ok guys, you win.

No need to re-invent the wheel, no need to bloat the system. I took the liberty of making the psion myself so that WotC can move on to more important things. It should work for everyone.

View attachment 68960

 

[GobiWon]

Any healing the psionicist has should use the hit die mechanic so that it doesn't step on the toes of the cleric. A psionicist would allow you to spend hit dice during combat to heal. It's a mechanic new to 5e and it is underutilized. It also keeps the psionicist healing from feeling divine in nature.

 

[aramis erak]

Ok guys, you win.

No need to re-invent the wheel, no need to bloat the system. I took the liberty of making the psion myself so that WotC can move on to more important things. It should work for everyone.

It cannot unless WotC publishes it. Spamming it at us won't make it official, and official is what's needed for organized play, and what will be standard for many people's home games.

I've not allowed 3rd party add-ons in my D&D gaming since about 1983... not even the dragon published classes. Not since the abuses we monty-hauled with the time traveller class.

 

[GobiWon]

Ok guys, you win.

No need to re-invent the wheel, no need to bloat the system. I took the liberty of making the psion myself so that WotC can move on to more important things. It should work for everyone.

View attachment 68960

Your post might be hyperbole, but if psionic bloodline sorcerer is all they are going to do. I'd rather WotC not do anything with psionics. I agree. It would feel underwhelming.

 

[steeldragons]

Ok guys, you win.

No need to re-invent the wheel, no need to bloat the system. I took the liberty of making the psion myself so that WotC can move on to more important things. It should work for everyone.

Who/which "guys win" with this option? Was my presentation re-inventing wheels or bloating the system? I was really hoping it didn't....I mean, any moreso
than adding any other new class and subclasses would.

Granted, I've not been paying especially close attention to the back-and-forth of the past several pages of this thread, but I was under the impression you, at least, Remathilis, were interested in them being "different" from magic-users...without, necessarily, being linked to any particular origin story.

I've done two (I think, that I can remember) iterations of "Psion as Sorcerer"...they're in sorcerer or psionics threads in the homebrew forum somwhere. If this is all someone wants out of a "generally psychic in all ways" psion PC, then it's great. It certainly is easy and simply added to any existing game.

I, personally, don't like the "any psion can just do all things psionic" direction, myself...and I suspect I am not alone in that. So I prefer -and think the canvas is certainly wide enough- to sustain separate class & subclasses.

And the flavor question is really only handled in the reality of the situation, that is, "Whatever the DM wants it to be" is their only avenue without pissing a LOT of people off one way or any other. Give us ideas for possibilities. You can not "brand" the total possibility of the human mind.

PS: Apologies Mercule. I don't know why every "reply with quote" I hit in this thread, for some reason pulls in messages of yours I've quoted. Kinda annoying. Carry on.

 

[steeldragons]

Any healing the psionicist has should use the hit die mechanic so that it doesn't step on the toes of the cleric. A psionicist would allow you to spend hit dice during combat to heal. It's a mechanic new to 5e and it is underutilized. It also keeps the psionicist healing from feeling divine in nature.

I like this...and it needn't really even move form the existing [my proposed] system. Just swap out Cure Wounds for something "Cognizant Stamina" or something psionicky sounding and describe the mech in the power description. Simple. I like simple.

I know I've expressed a disapproval of the "psionic sounding for psionics' sake" before, and I don't approve of just renaming spells for powers to do the same thing (as is obvious from my write-up/power suites), but this would be something distinctly in the metabolic psychic's wheelhouse. So, in those kinds of instances, I don't mind a little psychic/pseudo-psychology sounding stuff.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hmmm... Don't remember any version of the psion that used Charisma, cast magic missile, had spell slots, needed material components, and used metamagic. Sorry, can you post a picture of that?

The thing is, these are not the Sorcerer's defining characteristics - none of these things are things that sorcerers necessarily need to have.

The sorcerer's defining characteristic, it's central story, is "I have an origin that gives me supernatural abilities."

In the version of the sorcerer we have so far, that uses Charisma, spell slots or points, might cast magic missile, and has some ability to modify its magic on the fly.

It's central story seems to overlap pretty neatly with what you want psionics to be, which means there's a bit of a juncture here - either psionics are something else/more/different, or psionics is expressed somehow via the sorcerer class.

Mearls seems to be going in the former direction, at lest for this tweet/thought experiment.

Nope. I fully realize that certain magical affects are fundamentally permanent and non-dispellable.

That said, I have been a player in games in which monks start to age normally and dragons cannot fly when magic is gone, and it has been treated likewise in some literary works. Consider Larry Niven's "Magic Goes Away" setting- in one story set in it, one undead being is merely an inert skull when mana is not present.

In 5e/FR D&D, if the Weave stopped existing tomorrow, a monk wouldn't age, and a dragon could still fly and a tiefling could still cast hellish rebuke. Certain classes couldn't cast spells anymore, but druids could still wild shape, and clerics could still channel divinity. Which means that 5e has precedence for magic that doesn't reference the Weave.

If the only thing "not magic" about psionics is that it's off-the grid, that's not enough for it to be "not magic" by 5e standards.

What I am saying is that- in keeping with the bulk of the fiction that inspired the game mechanics- Psionics is not magic, it is as-yet myaterious science. And I think the game's version of that should be true to its roots.

That's kind of like insisting that wizards don't use magic, they use a little-understood science (which is actually a lot like wizards have been presented in D&D). That sorcerers don't use magic, they are just mutants. That warlocks don't use magic, they just have the power of some otherworldly entity. That clerics don't use magic, they just have their prayers answered. That druids don't use magic, they just have knowledge of the natural world. That dragonflight isn't magical, it's just that they have the ability to shift their mass to another dimension at will.

You can make that insistence, but it makes the word "magic" pretty meaningless, since it if reading minds and predicing the future and using your thoughts to control the actions of others is only "sometimes magical," the word ceases to apply to things that anyone using common language would describe as magical.