Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

WotC's Mike Mearls has been asking for opinions on how psionics should be treated in D&D 5th Edition. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that he'd hinted that he might be working on something, and this pretty much seals the deal. He asked yesterday "Agree/Disagree: The flavor around psionics needs to be altered to allow it to blend more smoothly into a traditional fantasy setting", and then followed up with some more comments today.

"Thanks for all the replies! Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots. One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc. But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.

One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."
 

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I like this...and it needn't really even move form the existing [my proposed] system. Just swap out Cure Wounds for something "Cognizant Stamina" or something psionicky sounding and describe the mech in the power description. Simple. I like simple.

I know I've expressed a disapproval of the "psionic sounding for psionics' sake" before, and I don't approve of just renaming spells for powers to do the same thing (as is obvious from my write-up/power suites), but this would be something distinctly in the metabolic psychic's wheelhouse. So, in those kinds of instances, I don't mind a little psychic/pseudo-psychology sounding stuff.

However, just to follow this train of thought for a moment...why does the psychic have to watch not to step on the cleric's toes when MOST of its abilities are going to be stepping on other spell-casters' effects?

I, personally, could totally see a psychic "healer" character who is all about the metabolic suites. Doesn't fight (unless absolutely necessary), takes all defensive talents, and part of the party, specifically for her healing ability. Maybe she has some secondary empathic abilities (feeling other's pain, discerning their injuries, and all that). But, essentially, capable of replacing a cleric -for healing purposes. I could totally see/would probably play such a psychic character.
 
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PS: Apologies Mercule. I don't know why every "reply with quote" I hit in this thread, for some reason pulls in messages of yours I've quoted. Kinda annoying. Carry on.
No worries. I had one of Hussar's posts trapped in my buffer for something like three weeks. I assume it has something to do with the multi-quote feature.
 

However, just to follow this train of thought for a moment...why does the psychic have to watch not to step on the cleric's toes when MOST of its abilities are going to be stepping on other spell-casters' effects?
Old habits. I'm sure you don't need the history lesson, but... It used to be that only clerics could heal -- wizards were all but explicitly barred from it in BECMI and 1E. The Bard has slowly pushed his way in, but I think there's a fear that if too many folks gain healing, the cleric might actually have to rely on his priestly shtick, rather than buff-and-heal. ;)

Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. One the one hand, it's an arbitrary divide and potentially forces someone into playing a character they really don't want, in the name of "greater good". On the other, most of the divine/arcane(/psionic) divide in D&D is pretty arbitrary, so why not allow people to mark territory and/or have to make trade-offs?
 

The thing is, these are not the Sorcerer's defining characteristics - none of these things are things that sorcerers necessarily need to have.

The sorcerer's defining characteristic, it's central story, is "I have an origin that gives me supernatural abilities."

In the version of the sorcerer we have so far, that uses Charisma, spell slots or points, might cast magic missile, and has some ability to modify its magic on the fly.

It's central story seems to overlap pretty neatly with what you want psionics to be, which means there's a bit of a juncture here - either psionics are something else/more/different, or psionics is expressed somehow via the sorcerer class.

The same argument could be made about clerics and warlocks, yet they have very different spell casting features.
 

The same argument could be made about clerics and warlocks, yet they have very different spell casting features.

While you could say that clerics and warlocks have the same story, it's important to note that 5e D&D does not say that. They present two distinct and different stories.

The story of the cleric might be said to be "My loyalty to a being greater than myself is rewarded with powers that advance both of our interests."

The story of the warlock might be said to be "Something otherworldly has granted me secret power that I can use to further my own interests."

Think of how a celestial warlock is distinct in the narrative from a cleric, or how a death-priest or or trickster-cleric is distinct from a warlock. 5e could have made the choice to combine them, but for reasons (that likely have little to do with these narratives) made them distinct. If the psion is to be distinct, it also needs a narrative that is not the same narrative that the sorcerer already has. The bar for that isn't particularly high, but it's still a thing that needs to be done.
 

Dang...all my quotes disappeared and didn't make it to this post. I'll just summarize points I made.

1) In 5e magic officially draws upon an interface. This is a universal (multiversal?) rule, and is not campaign setting dependent. It doesn't matter whether you are in Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Eberron, whatever--you use this interface to channel the magical energy inherent in all things into spells and magical effects, according to the core rules. Spellcasters in the Forgotten Realms refer to it as "the Weave" and conceptualize it as relating to Mystra, but the same interface exists across the entire multiverse. Different settings have different ways of conceptualizing this same interface and may not refer to it as "the Weave," but it's the same thing.

Like it or lump it, that is the official stance of 5e. I need to put this in my sig with references or something.

2) The antimagic field spell explicitly blocks all magical effects, not just spells. This means it should apply to ki, as ki is referred to as magical in the description of the monk class under "The Magic of Ki."

3) There are apparently magical effects that make use of "the Weave" but are accessed by neither arcane nor divine means. The magic of ki is an example, and the specific magical nature of it (the energy that flows through living beings) is described in the monk class description.

The precedent of ki would imply there could be other types of magic, and that they would make use of "the Weave."

Moving on...

I think it could be useful to determine what magic is in order to determine whether psionics is/should be concepualized as magical.

In the real world, it's kind of hard to pin down what the concept of magic actually refers to, and definitions vary. Most people wouldn't consider "anything supernatural" to automatically be magical. For instance, parapsychologists aren't likely to call ESP or precognition magic, and most people aren't going to call the very existence of a ghost magical.

But that varies widely. For instance, many (perhaps even most) practitioners of magic consider things like ESP to be essentially magical. In fact, the impression that I get is that the more "into" magic a person or mindset is, the more broadly they are likely to define it--even going so far as to hit a point where they would consider everything to be magical--much like the way D&D explains magic as permeating everything. In the ancient world, the very concept of magic as an umbrella term may have been absent, since what moderns would term supernatural is a standard part of the world view and not a separate element that one can push certain aspects into. You might perform a ritual to create X effect, but there is no particular reason that is in a different category than performing a mechanical physical act to create Y effect.

Some religions consider portions of their supernatural practices to be explicitly magical. Other religions consider nothing they do to be magic-related, but would consider the religions of others to be magical. This is perhaps related to one view of magic whereby the distinction is made that magical practices involve procedures that are guaranteed to produce a result without the need for the approval of another entity (such as a god or spirit), while a religious miracle or sacred act only functions according the agency of such another being. From that view, if an entity assists you because you compelled it, that is magic. If you simply requested it to help and it chose to without compulsion that is religion--although some would say that the nature of the entity would also make a difference, regardless of its agency or lack thereof.

Some would make a distinction between magic and science by saying that magic is a violation of natural laws. But relatively few practitioners are going to agree with that. In fact, some practitioners of magic are more likely than others to believe that it simply functions according to natural laws as yet poorly understood, or technologically beyond the current ability of science to observe and measure, but theoretically fully possible of being brought into the umbrella of technology given sufficiently advanced tools. One definition along these lines might be to conceptualize magic as a technology of spiritual (interpreted very broadly) things.

Which brings us to an argument that magic is merely a term of ignorance. If we don't understand how it (would) work, it is magic. Magic equals superstitious mumbo jumbo. If something is understood it is by definition not magic. Again, that definition is very divorced from actual practitioners, as far as I understand it.

The clearest impression that I can get about the concept of magic, as viewed IRL (and it relates at least tangentially to my academic field), is that the more accepting or involved a person is with the concept, the more likely they are to view it in broad or expansive terms, and that the less accepting or involved a person is, the more likely they are to define it either narrowly, or as a term referring to superstitious mumbo jumbo in general.

So, with that background to clarify our own preconceptions, we can examine what the relationship between psionics and magic is in D&D.

As I mentioned early in the post, D&D defines magical energy as permeating everything, but being accessible only through "the Weave." Ki referred to as a type of magic, and there appears to be nothing in the text exempting it from Weave-access requirement.

We can see here that D&D is taking the position that:

A) Raw magic is omnipresent and all-permeating in an inaccessible format
B) All mortal magic is accessed via "the Weave"

From this point on I'm going to use "magic" to refer only to Weave-mediated effects, since position A essentially says "everything is magic" in a general sense, which isn't very useful for discussion

C) Mortal magic extends beyond spellcasting

However, there are certain things that we call supernatural which lack explicit magical connections and don't appear to have the sort of inherent connection to the Weave that would allow them to be affected by magic-dependent affects (such as detect magic or antimagic field). Examples would be supernatural beings themselves, such as celestials, fiends, fey, etc. They do, however, often make use of magical effects dependent on the Weave.

D) There are supernatural things that aren't magical (Weave-dependent)

We can also see that certain types of Innate Spellcasting seen in the Monster Manual are listed as psionic. This might imply that they are inherently magical, except that:

E) While it might be inferred, it is nowhere stated that all spellcasting accesses the Weave

Ironically enough, the rules therefore appear to support the possibility that psionics could involve non-magical spellcasting, or that spellcasting could draw on something other than the Weave, even though most people aren't really arguing for that sort of position at all.

So D&D takes a position that you have a general supernatural nature of the multiverse, which can manifest in certain things we would consider supernatural (such as fey), and that the "magic" that is dealt with by characters and creatures in the world is based on interaction with the Weave in one way or another (spellcasting is one way, ki is another).

This apparently allows for a couple of psionic models

Psionic Model #1) Psionics is a form of supernatural effect (ie, dependent on the raw magic that suffuses everything) that isn't dependent on the Weave, and is therefore considered "non-magical" in the same sense as a celestial isn't considered inherently magical.
Ramifications of this view include that psionics wouldn't be effected by spells like detect magic or antimagic field, but could affected by other possible spells like detect psionics or dispel psionic effect. Psionics could, however, still use spellcasting (though it doesn't need to, and probably wouldn't). This view, however, makes non-magical psionics contrast with the magic of ki. Since ki draws upon life energy, which is explicitly magical, it seems really odd to have an internal energy (of the mind, etc) that psionics draws upon not be magical. It would seem to have to draw upon something truly alien to justify this position.

Psionic Model #2) Psionics is magic, dependent upon the Weave like all mortal magic. This view drawing up ki as a precedent, allows psionics to be neither arcane nor divine, and to have the source of magic be accessed without spellcasting. Since the Weave is the means of accessing life-energy magic, it can also be a means to access the internal power of the mind/soul/etc, which could serve as the definition of psionics (though it could just as easily access any other type of magical energy from any source WotC chooses). Just as with other types of magic, it need not (and probably shouldn't) use spellcasting.

Because of the precedent of ki and the difficulty of explaining the source of psionics in model #1 without going sci-fi or Far Realm, I favor Psionic Model #2.
 

If the psion is to be distinct, it also needs a narrative that is not the same narrative that the sorcerer already has. The bar for that isn't particularly high, but it's still a thing that needs to be done.
Agreed. This is where I've come to the conclusion that I just think WotC botched the sorcerer design by making it explicitly "naturally magic". You could say that the sorcerer is born to arcane magic. Whatever the cause, it leaves the sorcerer with some sort of glossolalia for the language of wizards. The magic is in them and demands to be released in the form of spells. The first wizards may have learned spells by watching sorcerers and taking notes. Maybe it's Mystra's way of offering her gift. Maybe the blood of dragons carries the knowledge genetically. Who knows? Sorcerers aren't just magic, they're natural wizards.

Psions, on the other hand, have true, raw, inborn power. They shape it into forms of their own making. Sure, there might be some laws that need to be followed (to keep the rules from becoming Mage: the Awakening), but there are no "spells". To a psion, the sorcerer is just a pretender -- they appear to be born to magic, but the truth is that they're just playing host to something they don't really control. This works regardless of whether or not you want "psionics are different"; just minor tweaks to the fluff.
 

You can make that insistence, but it makes the word "magic" pretty meaningless, since it if reading minds and predicing the future and using your thoughts to control the actions of others is only "sometimes magical," the word ceases to apply to things that anyone using common language would describe as magical.

The longer this thread goes on, the more pointless it becomes to me to argue whether psionics is magic or not.
The only meaty distinction to make is whether or not "Psionics is different." The alternate rule in 3e kinda forced that phrase into meaning "psionics is different than magic" but it need not be the case. I'd like the default to be that Psi is different, sure, but as long as it can be a "different kind of magic" that interacts with spellcasting magic in distinct ways (the amount of dispell, anti-magic field, etc interaction is up for debate) then our subjective interpretations of the fluff definition of magic can remain just that, fluff.

Of course there are many that are arguing any supernatural "magic" effect must be the same as the next supernatural "magic" effect because of a narrow definition of what in-game "magic" is and any discreet magic effect need be expressed as a "spell" and interact with other spells as such. Those people I still continue to disagree with.
 

In the interest of moving on to something passingly constructive (I know, Internet)....

How important is it to anyone that the "psionics is different" concept is baked in/vacated from the mechanics? What I mean by that, is does it need to be a sticking point for the conversation? Also, is there anything that would prevent/interfere with a system that's agnostic on the issue?
I think 3.5 had the best take, which was to present the psionics is magic/different choice to the DM and let him decide. 'Baking in' either option would at least annoy some sub-set of fans of D&D psionics, and that's at odds with the 5e philosophy of inclusiveness (not that 5e has been or can be expected to be perfectly inclusive, but it's nice to stick to it as much as possible).

Thus the options presented would need to have some rules alternatives. That is the 'different' option would have at least one set of optional rules detailing whether magic and psionics can detect/dispel/etc eachother. Presumably, in the 'different' option, anti-magic zones, magic resistance (not that it's as big a deal as it used to be) and the like wouldn't crimp a psion's style at all. Similarly, the 'magic' option would include any optional rules needed to spell out such interactions (depending on the mechanics, that might not need much).

Ironically, mechanics could go out of their way to be distinct from normal spellcasting, or leverage existing spell lists and mechanics, and still go either way. A rule that says psionics can't detect/dispel magic and vice versa works whether the psionics use Detect Magic and Dispel Magic and other Spells outright, or if they have their own PsiSense and ConterPsi and other disciplines and sciences sharing no common format or mechanics with spells. In the former case, Detect Magic just becomes Detect Psionics when the 'different' switch is thrown.

The sad part is that AL will need to either not use Psionics as part of the standard game, or come down on one side or the other. All three are unsatisfying alternatives.
 

Agreed. This is where I've come to the conclusion that I just think WotC botched the sorcerer design by making it explicitly "naturally magic". You could say that the sorcerer is born to arcane magic. Whatever the cause, it leaves the sorcerer with some sort of glossolalia for the language of wizards. The magic is in them and demands to be released in the form of spells. The first wizards may have learned spells by watching sorcerers and taking notes. Maybe it's Mystra's way of offering her gift. Maybe the blood of dragons carries the knowledge genetically. Who knows? Sorcerers aren't just magic, they're natural wizards.

Psions, on the other hand, have true, raw, inborn power. They shape it into forms of their own making. Sure, there might be some laws that need to be followed (to keep the rules from becoming Mage: the Awakening), but there are no "spells". To a psion, the sorcerer is just a pretender -- they appear to be born to magic, but the truth is that they're just playing host to something they don't really control. This works regardless of whether or not you want "psionics are different"; just minor tweaks to the fluff.

Personally, I think the sorcerer narrative is a bit win for 5e in part because it does away with the obtuse "arcane magic" jargon that doesn't make much sense from an outside perspective (and the fact that the little sidebar on the weave reintroduces that jargon is just another reason to really dislike that little sidebar). "I was born with awesome abilities" vs. "I learned awesome abilities" is totally a thing that even someone brand new to D&D can grok pretty easily.

I think the psion needs that, too. It doesn't need to abandon the idea of internal, self-directed power, but it needs to liberate its view of that from the sorcerer's "My ability comes from me" vibe. And that's where this connects to the fiction that Mearls was talking about - the narrative of the Far Realm distinguishes that, even if it might not be the direction we want to go in 5e.

bogmad said:
The only meaty distinction to make is whether or not "Psionics is different."

I agree - which is why I dipped into discussing spellcasting mechanics vs. other kinds of magic. I think there's a few good ideas about how psionics can be different, mechanically. Narratively, we might need a bit of something extra to make them different from sorcery.
 
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