Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

WotC's Mike Mearls has been asking for opinions on how psionics should be treated in D&D 5th Edition. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that he'd hinted that he might be working on something, and this pretty much seals the deal. He asked yesterday "Agree/Disagree: The flavor around psionics needs to be altered to allow it to blend more smoothly into a traditional fantasy setting", and then followed up with some more comments today.

"Thanks for all the replies! Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots. One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc. But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.

One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."

 

[Tony Vargas]

The question we have to ask ourselves is counterspell going to work against psionics? I think about half this board says yes. The other half says no. I come down on the side of no. In my mind, it has to be something other than magic or what is the point.

I'd have to say, yes (to magic resistance, dispel magic, & anti-magic zones, as well), by default, simply because the primary check on magic in D&D has traditionally been magic, and adding a second mechanically-distinct 'Source' whose only check is itself might be problematic.

That said, it should be simple enough to present a 3.5-style 'psionics is different' option, as well.

 

[Mercule]

The question we have to ask ourselves is counterspell going to work against psionics? I think about half this board says yes. The other half says no. I come down on the side of no. In my mind, it has to be something other than magic or what is the point.

This is where having divine magic work like arcane magic becomes a rub. There's a much better argument for arcane magic not being able to dispel/counter divine magic than there is for it being impotent against psionics -- because God said "no".

This just proves your point, but I can find absolutely no way to justify a wall around psionics without also adding one around divine magic. That may be an acceptable house rule, but it's not baked into the core 5E assumptions and would have some trickle-down impacts (Bards can't use Clerical Cure Wounds scrolls).

 

[GobiWon]

I'd have to say, yes (to magic resistance, dispel magic, & anti-magic zones, as well), by default, simply because the primary check on magic in D&D has traditionally been magic, and adding a second mechanically-distinct 'Source' whose only check is itself might be problematic.

That said, it should be simple enough to present a 3.5-style 'psionics is different' option, as well.

How you present something is important. If counterspell works against psionics as the default then it is just another "flavor" of magic like arcane or divine and there is not enough reason for it to exist in my mind. Psionics has always been the thing that filled the void when magic was lost (i.e. Dark Sun or other settings with a futuristic or Lovecraftian bent). If it seamlessly works with "traditional" D&D magic then it loses some of its flavor and it is hard to justify why it remains in a setting like Dark Sun when arcane and divine magic does not.

 

[GobiWon]

This is where having divine magic work like arcane magic becomes a rub. There's a much better argument for arcane magic not being able to dispel/counter divine magic than there is for it being impotent against psionics -- because God said "no".

This just proves your point, but I can find absolutely no way to justify a wall around psionics without also adding one around divine magic. That may be an acceptable house rule, but it's not baked into the core 5E assumptions and would have some trickle-down impacts (Bards can't use Clerical Cure Wounds scrolls).

Gods and mortals tap into the same source. In the Realms the source is the "Weave". Psionics is different.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm on the fence about this.

On the one hand, psionics that can be detected/dispelled/countered by magic creates a natural check on its abuse. A psionic charm effect that cannot be detected nor removed except by psionic means becomes an arms race, and more PCs will have access to magic than psionics in a typical D&D game (even a Dark Sun games has a decent selection of magical creatures and casters). OTOH: it does reduce psionics to another type of "magic"; which is the opposite of what I want. Which is why having a unique psionic mechanic becomes critical in making psionics and magic separate.

My gut is to grant magic the ability to effect psionics (and vice versa) but with the cavaet that it increases the need of psionics to "feel" different in play and that the spell slot system (or even the spell point variant) isn't going to cut it as the method of delivering psionics. It needs something new.

 

[Tony Vargas]

How you present something is important. If counterspell works against psionics as the default then it is just another "flavor" of magic like arcane or divine and there is not enough reason for it to exist in my mind.

Even if there's a clear, easily-implemented option presented for it to be 'different?'

Arcane & Divine are awfully different in concept, yet the game has them work virtually identically, mechanically, because it's expedient - it saved page count, design resources, and has the two working together smoothly and avoids potentially problematic issues with how 'different magics' might interact.

That doesn't mean a DM couldn't decide that the Gods are ascendant in his setting, declare the two types different, and that a Divine 'Dispel Magic' sweeps away any arcane spell with no roll, while arcane dispels can't touch Divine effects.

Dropping in psionics as another form of magic, leveraging existing spell lists & mechanics, would in no way prevent one from making it 'different' and instituting a few simple rulings to give that difference teeth.

also, this:

psionics that can be detected/dispelled/countered by magic creates a natural check on its abuse. A psionic charm effect that cannot be detected nor removed except by psionic means becomes an arms race, and more PCs will have access to magic than psionics in a typical D&D game (even a Dark Sun games has a decent selection of magical creatures and casters).

 

[Remathilis]

Gods and mortals tap into the same source. In the Realms the source is the "Weave". Psionics is different.

This quote made me realize what Mearls was asking...

Magic comes from the Weave. There are a lot of path's to the weave: studying spells (wizard), Gods (cleric), natural forces (druid), pacts with powerful entities (warlock), songs of creation (bard), and even inherited talent from special bloodlines (sorcerer). In the end though, they are all different paths to the same source; the weave where magic comes from and all magic (no matter its source) obeys the rules of "spells" because in the end, they are all coming from the same origin (just through different routes). Think of it like the internet; I can access it from a Windows, Linux,Mac, iOS or Android device using Chrome, Safari, Firefox, Opera, or Internet Explorer, but they all lead to the same internet source.

Psionics is different. It doesn't use the Weave as a source of magic. It pulls from somewhere else. Which is why its powers shouldn't look like weave powers; they are different, strange, alien. Kinda like the Far Realm. What if psionics doesn't draw from the weave but some other energy like that which is beyond space and time is what Mearls is asking? Psionics isn't hacking the Weave, its bypassing it. Its like TOR, bypassing the normal web and searching the Deep Web. Its powers look superficially similar to magic (supernatural effects happen) but the devil is in the details; psioncis differ in acquisition, usage, and effect.

Of course, that's not the only option; psionics could pull from the Web of Life, the wisdom of the Ancients, the Realm of Dreams, or a bunch of other places. The point is it doesn't pull from the Weave (and thus isn't just another type of magic) but it gets its juju from somewhere else.

Because otherwise, psionics becomes just another path to the Weave, another on-ramp for spells to come through. And we have plenty of those already.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

This quote made me realize what Mearls was asking...

Magic comes from the Weave. There are a lot of path's to the weave: studying spells (wizard), Gods (cleric), natural forces (druid), pacts with powerful entities (warlock), songs of creation (bard), and even inherited talent from special bloodlines (sorcerer). In the end though, they are all different paths to the same source; the weave where magic comes from and all magic (no matter its source) obeys the rules of "spells" because in the end, they are all coming from the same origin (just through different routes). Think of it like the internet; I can access it from a Windows, Linux,Mac, iOS or Android device using Chrome, Safari, Firefox, Opera, or Internet Explorer, but they all lead to the same internet source.

Psionics is different. It doesn't use the Weave as a source of magic. It pulls from somewhere else. Which is why its powers shouldn't look like weave powers; they are different, strange, alien. Kinda like the Far Realm. What if psionics doesn't draw from the weave but some other energy like that which is beyond space and time is what Mearls is asking? Psionics isn't hacking the Weave, its bypassing it. Its like TOR, bypassing the normal web and searching the Deep Web. Its powers look superficially similar to magic (supernatural effects happen) but the devil is in the details; psioncis differ in acquisition, usage, and effect.

Of course, that's not the only option; psionics could pull from the Web of Life, the wisdom of the Ancients, the Realm of Dreams, or a bunch of other places. The point is it doesn't pull from the Weave (and thus isn't just another type of magic) but it gets its juju from somewhere else.

Because otherwise, psionics becomes just another path to the Weave, another on-ramp for spells to come through. And we have plenty of those already.

That's a good point. I was just pondering what it would necessarily mean for psionics to be "magic" (what is and isn't magic in D&D?), and then you pointed out that the game already tells us exactly what magic is in D&D in that sidebar I find myself pointing people to all the time.

So yeah, with that definition of magic, psionics should probably be somewhat different, though I have no problem with psionics-magic transparency interaction rules.

 

[GobiWon]

I see psionics as internal. It is the power of individual sentience. It is a hyperawareness of everything around you and your connection to it. Its manifestation might because of mental rigor and discipline or it might be triggered through contact with the Far Realm, but it is different than typical fantasy magic.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The question we have to ask ourselves is counterspell going to work against psionics? I think about half this board says yes. The other half says no. I come down on the side of no. In my mind, it has to be something other than magic or what is the point.

If psi is like casting spells then counterspell should work fine against it.

If psi is a different ruleset, counterspell should not work against it, any more than it works against superiority dice or a shield or wildshape.