D&D 5E Mind Blank against Command

[Lakesidefantasy]

...are you all saying "the victim is forced to do something contrary to its will, therefore it must be mind altering, therefore Mind Blank works"?

I'm going to play the game despite the rules.

I will say, "he is protected by mind blank and your attempt to command him fails."

If you protest I'll say, "sorry that's my ruling, let's move on."

If you persist, I'll quickly cave and say, "fine, your command spell works against him."

Anything to continue playing the game.

 

[Lyxen]

It doesn't matter if they have to be mind affecting. The rule is that they ARE mind affecting.

You know what, you are absolutely right. I did not realise that the definition of the school was so encompassing, thanks for pointing that out.

And that being the case, it's normal that Mind Blank protects against Enchantment spells in general. It might have been better to spell it out in the description, as it already protects against divination, so adding enchantment would have made things much easier.

Overall, it makes Mind Blank even more desirable, protecting against two schools, and in a sense enchantment is much more aggressive than domination.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Or bladder.

Cleric: "Pee!"

That spell is much more powerful in social pillar than combat. Imagine the political rallies in a world where a 1st level cleric (standing inconspicuously in a crowd) can whisper "pee" or "defecate" (if they went to high school) from within the applauding crowd...

 

[jgsugden]

Let's just state the obvious and keep it in mind: They didn't settle upon the best wording here. They had an intent, they tried to reduce it to words, but their words did not achieve their goals.

If they wanted all enchantment spells to be blocked by Mind Blank, it would have been easy to put that in place. They did not.

Further, when we read the second sentence, we can consider it in one of two ways. Either the "affect the target's mind" can be seen as broadening the list from the first sentence to all mind influencing magic, or it could be a way to summarize the items from the first sentence that affect minds, despite not having the specificity of that first sentence's list. It could either be saying, "Hey, no enchantments at all!" or it could be saying, "You can't charm, even if you use a wish to do it!" Honestly, neither option is well served by the way the spell is written.

In the end, I take the WOPR approach - "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

While Mind Blank, as written exists in my campaign, so does a variant that specifies that any spell that influences or controls the actions, behaviors or thoughts of the target is blocked. Guess which one is found more often.

 

[see]

Well, in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, mind blank specifically calls out command as one of the spells it protects against. In D&D 3rd and 3.5, mind blank blocked all "all mind-affecting spells and effects", and command was a specifically-labeled "mind-affecting" spell.

It seems pretty obvious that in 5e they tried to de-technicalize and shorten the wording from the previous versions (while throwing in protection from the new psychic damage type), with the issue that "[mind-affecting]" was no longer a special spell label. Since pretty much everybody in the playtest would know "how it's supposed to work" from the way it worked in previous editions, and high levels (where mind blank enters) wouldn't have gotten much testing anyway, any ambiguity with the new wording would have been hard to catch.

(The mind blank from Supplement I: Greyhawk does not affect anything other than various forms of divination. The equivalent mind barrier spell from BECMI and the Rules Cyclopedia gave a +8 to saves against "mind-influencing attacks" instead of immunity.)

 

[Gadget]

Let's just state the obvious and keep it in mind: They didn't settle upon the best wording here. They had an intent, they tried to reduce it to words, but their words did not achieve their goals.

This is true of many spells in 5e. Many of us remember the Barkskin debacle in early 5e, where the wording had to have an official interpretation to clarify. Or the Contagion "interpretation" that they later had to errata. Or the official interpretation that twin spell does not work with Dragon's Breath, even though by the logic used in the interpretation, it would not work on haste either.

I don't know if the designers intended Mind Blank to exclude all of the Enchantment school, as that is pretty extreme. I can see the argument though. That would include the Power Word spells as well.

I have a hard time buying the "Charmed condition is the mind-affecting tag for spells" argument though. There are so many obviously mind-affecting spells that do not have the charmed condition. And it would be awkward to add it for some like Compel Duel. Many spells say they do not work if the target cannot be charmed, that seems like a better option to me, though they would have to go in add that verbiage to a number of spells; and I'm not sure that is desirable in some instances.

Another conundrum for Mind Blank: what if your Mind Blanked character runs into an NPC under the Foresight spell? Will the Foresighted NPC still get advantage on rolls against the Mind Blanked PC? Will the Mind Blanked PC suffer disadvantage on rolls against the Foresighted NPC? RAW, you could argue that Foresight is a Divination spell that reveals information about the Mind Blanked PC, so it should not provide the normal bonus it does against almost all other opponents. But I can see it being hard to remember to do that in play, since Foresight is more of a passive, always on thing.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

In a tournament one-shot between PCs where Mindblank shouldn't nullify more of opposing characters repertoires than need be I would go with the most conservative RAW reading and wouldn't let Mindblank stop Command.

In any other context, if a player spent their 8th level spell slot to avoid having their mind messed with I wouldn't let people mess with their mind, and that includes Command. Nor would I let them command around the BBEG archmage.

 

[see]

Since pretty much everybody in the playtest would know "how it's supposed to work" from the way it worked in previous editions, and high levels (where mind blank enters) wouldn't have gotten much testing anyway, any ambiguity with the new wording would have been hard to catch.

Oh, something to note about this point: mind blank wasn't in the public playtest packets. Since I don't know what went on in the private playtests, it's actually possible that the 5e wording wasn't playetsted by anyone, ever, before the PHB was published. Even if it was, relatively few eyes ever evaluated it.

 

[Maxperson]

That spell is much more powerful in social pillar than combat. Imagine the political rallies in a world where a 1st level cleric (standing inconspicuously in a crowd) can whisper "pee" or "defecate" (if they went to high school) from within the applauding crowd...

While that would be fun, but I'd rule that it wouldn't work. While it doesn't say it outright, the fact that the target has to understand the language is a very strong indicator that it also needs to be able to hear you. That cleric would have to shout at the top of his lungs and hope the crowd doesn't drown out his voice.

 

[Maxperson]

If they wanted all enchantment spells to be blocked by Mind Blank, it would have been easy to put that in place. They did not.

They did. It's called rules. The spell blocks everything that affects the mind. Enchantments are by RAW all mind affecting spells. It's right there in crystal clear language. To spell it out further within the spell would be redundant.

Further, when we read the second sentence, we can consider it in one of two ways. Either the "affect the target's mind" can be seen as broadening the list from the first sentence to all mind influencing magic, or it could be a way to summarize the items from the first sentence that affect minds, despite not having the specificity of that first sentence's list. It could either be saying, "Hey, no enchantments at all!" or it could be saying, "You can't charm, even if you use a wish to do it!" Honestly, neither option is well served by the way the spell is written.

It's an 8th level spell that has one purpose, so it's not unreasonable for it to just stop all enchantments like the wording says. We also know that making you immune to mind affecting things is consistent with what the spell did in prior editions.