Mind Blank defeats the effect of a True Strike?

[KarinsDad]

KD, putting WHOLE WORDS INTO CAPITALS doesn't make you correct.

Sorry, it’s late and I was too lazy to italicize. But, I’m still correct.

You'll note that the subject is the character and his next attack, not the attack's target. The divination is independent of the attack's target (be it rock, tree, kobold or mind blanked hero) and works regardless.

Thus, true strike doesn't seem to have anything to do with a mind blanked subject. The true strike spell description doesn't mention the attack's target at all; the divination is about the future, not a person, and thus mind blank (pretty clearly, at least to me) doesn't apply.

Okay, poke holes in my analysis!

If you insist PC.

Let’s take an example. A Hasted Improved Invisible Wizard flying around casting spells. Hard to target, correct? You have no clue where he even is from round to round.

True Strike ignores concealment bonuses (due to Invisibility for example) because it gives the caster knowledge of where the target will be.

Mind Blank stops divination spells that give knowledge about the target. In fact, almost all divination spells give knowledge about the target. Plus, Mind Blank explicitly states that it will even stop Wish if it is used in such a way to gain knowledge about the protected character.

Do you really think that True Strike does not give knowledge on the whereabouts of the protected character? Do you really think that it does not state (with a +20 to the roll) where a vulnerable spot on the character will be in the immediate future? With a +20, a hit is practically guaranteed with True Strike (failing 5% of the time on a roll of one) in most cases.

I think you guys are getting too caught up in the phrases “Mind Blank” and “intuitive insight into the immediate future” and not enough into the “protects against information gathering by divination spells”.

True Strike is a divination spell and it gives information on the whereabouts of the target in the immediate future. It seems fairly clear. Your location is information about you just like your alignment is information about you. That's why Mind Blank explicitly talks about it preventing scrying. Just so that people will not be confused on it.

 

[Striderman]

I know this kind of goes the opposite direction of my earlier post, but I am only presenting arguments, anyway, and this is a fun debate.
Anyway, depending on how one decides the True Strike spell works in his/her game, it might be reasoned that rather than the insight being where your opponent is, the insight is only where your weapon is going to go. Yes, this is a very flimsy argument, and yes, it could still go both ways, but it is still an interesting point (at least to me). Personally, I think that the best option is not to try to reason how the spell might actually function (even though I just did that a moment ago), but rather to decide how well it fits into the balance of things. Is it a game breaker to allow the True Strike to work against a Mind Blanked opponent? I don't think so. That is why I would lean towards allowing it. OTOH, does it make sense or cause problems for the Mind Blank to foil the True Strike? The idea sounds logical to me. That is why I might lean in that direction. So basically, my suggestion is that you remember that the DM is GOD and let him/her do what he/she wants with it. :Þ

 

[StealthyMark]

Remember, True Strike has no target. It doesn't operate per target, it operates on the caster.

 

[Darklone]

Ruleslawying.

Ok guys. You are very good at interpreting the words of spells or other rules without caring about any spirit of the words. Congrats for being "lawful".
That's what I don't like about D&D. Magic Missile: you need a shield spell against it. Scrying: you need nondetection.

If there is not explicitely stated what you can use against which spell or item or whatever, it does not work.

It's not at all logical. If you want to have it that way, go on. Live by the letter of the rules. Enjoy discussions for hours with your players.

I think I gonna have some roleplaying instead.

 

[FANGO]

Took the words right out of my mouth, stealthymark.

True strike works against mind blanked opponents because it doesn't target them. Pretty obvious to me...

And also, the example with the flying around wizard doesn't work, because although true strike negates miss chances, it doesn't let you know where someone is. This is why it works on mind blanked opponents...because it isn't targeted, it just works on your next attack (no matter who you target, as long as it is someone who is targetable). Remember that invisible opponents do get a 50% miss chance, but you also need to find out where they are in order to target them, which can only (?) be done with a listen check vs their move silently +20 (see example in dmg, in the 'degrees of success' ection). However, if you do know what square they're in, even in they're mind blanked, you still get the bonus because you don't target them.

 

[hong]

Can someone explain to me the rationale for mind blank protecting you from all divination spells in the first place? I can see it protecting you from stuff like the detect X spells, but why should a wall around your mind stop, say, a scrying attempt?

 

[Little_Buddha]

Well... it's magic, innit?

It helps to think of Mind Blank as a form of stealth mode for magic. You cast the spell and disappear from the mental screens of any Divination magic.

That said, True Strike is a personal spell and as written the spell doesn't protect against it. Since you don't need to designate the target before you cast the spell (you cast True Sight and your next attack roll within the duration gets a +20 bonus), the spell isn't technically defeated by Mind Blank.

Declaring that Mind Blank foils True Strike is a fair house ruling, though, since you can argue that logically the subject of an Mind Blank disappears as far as Divination magic is concerned. Following on from this, one could deduce that the insights granted by True Strike would not include anyone under the influence of the cloaking spell.

As written, though, Mind Blank doesn't actually affect True Strike - the latter doesn't "detect, influence or read emotions or thoughts", and nor is it a "mind affecting spell".

[Edit: Mental blank, wrote True Sight instead of True Strike.]

 

[Little_Buddha]

Let’s take an example. A Hasted Improved Invisible Wizard flying around casting spells. Hard to target, correct? You have no clue where he even is from round to round.

True Strike ignores concealment bonuses (due to Invisibility for example) because it gives the caster knowledge of where the target will be.

Really? My True Strike grants a +20 insight bonus to attack and negates the miss chance due to concealment. Technically it doesn't locate an invisible creature, AFAIK. You've still got to know/guess the location of the wizard...

Mind Blank stops divination spells that give knowledge about the target.

Reference? Mind Blank stops "all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts".

True Strike doesn't fit any of those categories according to the PHB rules.

It "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects".

True Strike isn't either of those according to the PHB rules.

It foils even the most powerful spells "when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject's mind or to gain information about him".

True Strike doesn't do that according to the PHB rules.

Do you really think that True Strike does not give knowledge on the whereabouts of the protected character?

Yeah, actually, since True Strike is a Personal only spell that does not require a target for the attack to be specified. It sees into the caster's personal future, not that of the caster's target. Your interpretation of Mind Blank is logical, but not actually supported by the rules. The categories laid out under Mind Blank are fairly specific and True Strike does not fall under any of them.

True Strike is a divination spell and it gives information on the whereabouts of the target in the immediate future. It seems fairly clear. Your location is information about you just like your alignment is information about you.

True. However, True Strike never gives any information about a target's location. It grants a +20 insight bonus to the caster's next attack roll. I understand your argument, and it would make a fine house rule. But according to the PHB rules as written, True Strike does not fall under any of the clearly laid out categories protected by Mind Blank.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Yep.

I was going to type up a whole rational response with quotes, but then I noticed this thread had a second page, and a reply from Little Buddha that covered all my points.

That said, I kind of like the fact that there are 1st level spells that can defeat an 8th level spell. Lends some symmetry to the system. Just as Dispel Magic can take out, say, a Domination spell.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Can someone explain to me the rationale for mind blank protecting you from all divination spells in the first place? I can see it protecting you from stuff like the detect X spells, but why should a wall around your mind stop, say, a scrying attempt?

You're getting hung up on the name, "Mind Blank." I always took it to mean you're a cipher, you don't show up on the radar, so to speak.