D&D (2024) Mind Style versus Grid Style: can core support both?
payn
He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I think the rulings over rules philosophy of design makes this possible. I know a lot of folks groan at its mention, and wish the rules were more uniform and/or complete, but this partial vagueness allows room for table interpretation. You can easily go either way with 5E which is something that was much more difficult in 3E and 4E.
Neonchameleon
Legend
The thing is that you can absolutely be mediocre at both (and you can be bad at literally anything) but what makes for a good grid style game is in large part doing precisely the things that are hard in theatre of the mind.
In particular it's all the fiddly actions and overlaps and the pushes using existing terrain. You're using existing terrain and existing factors that have been previously set up. In a grid based game it's the equivalent of bumping the lamp in filmmaking or that scene early in Lord of the Rings where Gandalf hands Frodo his hat, thus 'proving' that the size difference is not just a trick of forced perspective or two actors on separate green screens or filmed in their shot/reverse shot on different days. These overlapping effects and interacting with unexpected but pre-existing properties don't work nearly so well in ToTM.
So you can have both working. But both working well is a lot harder as strengths and weaknesses are different between the different approaches.
In particular it's all the fiddly actions and overlaps and the pushes using existing terrain. You're using existing terrain and existing factors that have been previously set up. In a grid based game it's the equivalent of bumping the lamp in filmmaking or that scene early in Lord of the Rings where Gandalf hands Frodo his hat, thus 'proving' that the size difference is not just a trick of forced perspective or two actors on separate green screens or filmed in their shot/reverse shot on different days. These overlapping effects and interacting with unexpected but pre-existing properties don't work nearly so well in ToTM.
So you can have both working. But both working well is a lot harder as strengths and weaknesses are different between the different approaches.
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
"Mind Style versus Grid Style: can core support both?"
I don't think it's a question of "can."
I think the history and the current practice of D&D is clear- D&D must support both Theater of the Mind ("ToTM") as well as Grid/Minis/Chits/Battlemap ("Minis").
Think of D&D as the TTRPG equivalent of light; it is both a wave and particle. Here, it is both a game for ToTM, and a game for Minis. It is both a desert topping and a floor wax.
I don't think it's a question of "can."
I think the history and the current practice of D&D is clear- D&D must support both Theater of the Mind ("ToTM") as well as Grid/Minis/Chits/Battlemap ("Minis").
Think of D&D as the TTRPG equivalent of light; it is both a wave and particle. Here, it is both a game for ToTM, and a game for Minis. It is both a desert topping and a floor wax.
Agreed. I would describe 5e as useable with both styles but not particularly enhancing of either.
Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
I've never played D&D - any edition - using minis or a grid, except in some AL games years ago. I've found that 5e lends itself to TotM play just fine. Better than 3.5 did, for sure.
As others have mentioned, the key to TotM play is letting go of the tape measure. I prefer that approach myself, because IRL very few people can accurately gauge distances, but players use grids to do exactly that. I also find that playing TotM, players think more 3-dimensionally. It's much more challenging to imagine things that aren't present when a good chunk of the game is; when you have a game board to play on, nobody thinks to look UP.
Anyway.
As others have mentioned, the key to TotM play is letting go of the tape measure. I prefer that approach myself, because IRL very few people can accurately gauge distances, but players use grids to do exactly that. I also find that playing TotM, players think more 3-dimensionally. It's much more challenging to imagine things that aren't present when a good chunk of the game is; when you have a game board to play on, nobody thinks to look UP.
Anyway.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
God does not play dice…except when she is DMing.
teitan
Legend
I would argue D&D has not always been both. 0-2e were definitely not both. Miniatures were mentioned but not integral to play in those early editions by any stretch nor practical due to the cost and availability. Even 3.0 they were not necessarily essential to the game by any stretch. The grid was not even a part of the game as it was suggested in inches and the 1e DMG had loose guidelines for both squares and hexes but equally supported the use of measuring tapes or rulers for distances and the scale was one for floors and another for heights but outside of Battlesystem for mass combat they weren’t an expectation of play but a fun addition if you could and all but a luxury by the time 2e was released and then the grid became a very cool skirmish module for the Combat & Tactics Player’s Option rule book that became the foundation for modern grid play.
Theater of the Mind was the default and the doubling down on the skirmish aspects of 3.x in 4e was a big drawback and Chief criticism of that edition for many considering that shortly after launch WOTC raised prices, changed the approach and then scaled back the D&D miniatures line, undercutting a primary component of the game with 1st party support.
The micro measurements have always been part & parcel of RPGs with many theater of the mind games still using them because we still use distances to describe things in relation to one another. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Champions, for example, uses measurements in the same way and is not a heavy miniatures game. Vampire: The Masquerade last I check, the TotM par excellence, uses them as well. So I don’t really see an issue here.
Much like any other RPG these things are easier to conceive on a tabletop with a physical representation in all games and there is a reason even games that didn’t usually use miniatures before the 3.x era saw a creep in of miniatures to help with game play including Cthulhu.
Could some things be better? Sure thing. Get rid of the grid. Abandon it altogether for a raw measurement using measuring tapes or rulers. Eliminates square counting, speeding up play, eliminates concerns with making everything fit into a perfectly mathematical grid size and shape. The grid should be a guideline to mapping but not within the play area for movement. Get rid of circular bases, helps to kill a whole host of other issues like centaur PCs being forced into medium size while being Large size because we don’t want them on the 2” circular bases. Realize that the adv/disadv mechanic isn’t the answer to every scenario. Does it help with the grid vs totm? No because with the 5e rules the only areas of complexity then become flanking.
Theater of the Mind was the default and the doubling down on the skirmish aspects of 3.x in 4e was a big drawback and Chief criticism of that edition for many considering that shortly after launch WOTC raised prices, changed the approach and then scaled back the D&D miniatures line, undercutting a primary component of the game with 1st party support.
The micro measurements have always been part & parcel of RPGs with many theater of the mind games still using them because we still use distances to describe things in relation to one another. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Champions, for example, uses measurements in the same way and is not a heavy miniatures game. Vampire: The Masquerade last I check, the TotM par excellence, uses them as well. So I don’t really see an issue here.
Much like any other RPG these things are easier to conceive on a tabletop with a physical representation in all games and there is a reason even games that didn’t usually use miniatures before the 3.x era saw a creep in of miniatures to help with game play including Cthulhu.
Could some things be better? Sure thing. Get rid of the grid. Abandon it altogether for a raw measurement using measuring tapes or rulers. Eliminates square counting, speeding up play, eliminates concerns with making everything fit into a perfectly mathematical grid size and shape. The grid should be a guideline to mapping but not within the play area for movement. Get rid of circular bases, helps to kill a whole host of other issues like centaur PCs being forced into medium size while being Large size because we don’t want them on the 2” circular bases. Realize that the adv/disadv mechanic isn’t the answer to every scenario. Does it help with the grid vs totm? No because with the 5e rules the only areas of complexity then become flanking.
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