Mining with a Waraxe

[monboesen]

Power Attack is...but I don't see a logical in-game reason to deny it.

When Power Attacking you are making wild swings, sacrificing accuracy for power.



I would rule that when attacking inanimate objects you are already whacking as hard as you can, since accuracy is of little interest. Thus hitting with all you have is already assumed and implemented into the Hardness rules. Result: No Power attacking allowed.

 

[Umbran]

Silence spell should negate most vibrations, since those are a form of sound. Cast it on some small object that you can throw away when you want to cast spells.

It is a 5' thick wall, and silence is a 20' radius. The SRD, at least, is less than clear about whether the emanation is stopped by stone - other emanations (like Detect Evil) specifically state they are blocked, but Silence doesn't. In other words, the guys on the other side of the wall may be alerted by having it go silent all of a sudden.

And as to letting the targets prepare for an attack... that can be used against them if the players are clever. Start tunneling, let them think you're getting close, then back off for a few minutes or even an hour. All those buffs are gone and all those spell slots used up.

If the ambushers are reasonably intelligent, this won't work too well. I don't know about you, but if I heard tons of rock moving on the other side of the wall, and I knew there were guys wanderign around who wanted to hurt me, I'd not sit for an arbitrary length of time waiting for them. Doubly so if some of my own abilities are time dependant.

If they are really smart - they'll use your own tactic against you. They start digging to meet you (which you won't notice over the noise of your own work) so that you break through in half the time, but unprepared

 

[Stalker0]

You could also rule that the dwarf is fatigued after the tunneling...that's hard work!!

But this is yet another reason I don't like x2 PA

 

[Tonguez]

Silence spell should negate most vibrations, since those are a form of sound. Cast it on some small object that you can throw away when you want to cast spells

Um no sound is caused by the effects of vibration of the ear drum. The silence spell can not stop an earthquake (which is a vibration in rock) so why should it dampen vibrations in rock caused by miners?

But um as to dwarfs mining with axes - I'm thinking maybe you should be checking on what damage is being done to the ax....

 

[Brother MacLaren]

You could also rule that the dwarf is fatigued after the tunneling...that's hard work!!

Well, by the rules he's just attacking an object for 11 rounds. And miners do work for hours at a time, AND he has the Endurance feat. Likewise, an adamantine waraxe can easily withstand 11 blows against a stone surface. If there were rules for damaging a weapon used in this manner, they would have to apply when fighting a stone golem or a stone animated object.

This is a sea cave -- the PCs are going to be on a ledge 30' above the water. They're tunneling from a small alcove into a larger alcove that would normally be reached by following the ledge around a corner. It's more or less an encounter designed to show off some of the tactical options (e.g. Balance, Jump, Bull Rush) to players who aren't that familiar with them.

The defenders are holed up in the large alcove so they can bring their numbers to bear, cast Grease on the ledge, bull rush anybody coming around the corner, etc. The defenders can't all rush out at once to attack because of the narrow ledge, though they might start tunneling on their own.

The main reason for the tunneling is not surprise, but to have an easier entry point with fewer Balance checks. For this group, I'm impressed by this level of creativity and recognizing the risk of following the normal route. They're very good RP'ers but tend to go along with what they think the DM wants them to do rather than thinking outside the box.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Um no sound is caused by the effects of vibration of the ear drum. The silence spell can not stop an earthquake (which is a vibration in rock) so why should it dampen vibrations in rock caused by miners?

But um as to dwarfs mining with axes - I'm thinking maybe you should be checking on what damage is being done to the ax....

Sound is not caused by the effects of vibration of the ear drum. Hearing is. A Silence spell does not make people deaf, it stops the propagation of the pressure wave in air. Whether it stops the vibration of any other kind of molecules is somewhat uncertain.

Sound travels through air by making air molecules vibrate. Sound travels through water by making water molecules vibrate. Sound travels through rock or steel by making a solid object's molecules vibrate. Silence stops all forms of sonic energy. True, given the way that solid objects block line of effect for magic, it would be a confusing interaction... but for this particular gaming group, I'd reward them for their creativity. They are not very good at using magic tactically.

 

[monboesen]

Basically it is beginning to sound like you would like to let them do the tunneling. If for nothing else to reward creativity.


In that case you don't need our interpretation of the rules. You need to focus on whether or not creatures on the other side of the tunneling will have a chance of detecting the tunneling before it is finished. And how they will react of the do detect it.


My only concern as a DM would be that i foresee many many game nights of tunneling through wood, rock and metal walls, doors and other barriers. It is a dangerous precedent to set. And a hard one to go back on.


In order to avoid that you either need to say NO right now or set some consequense for the tunneling. It could be wear and tear for the axe or general fatigue from the hard work until the miner takes a few minutes to catch his breath.

 

[Felnar]

when did adamantine become a light saber?
i read a thread where people explained how the open lock skill was worthless, "just use an adamantine dagger"
why does it transform all materials into "butter"?
why not into rope? (hardness zero)

your dwarf could cut a 19.5 inch thick rope in a single swing (1hp/inch) (even with a normal steel axe)
do you really want that to happen?

is it satisfying to have any old adamantine weapon perform better than a Mattock of the Titans?
(mattock digs slower and requires the user to be size huge)

Infiniti2000's points out that the rules can already handle this. But those rules are very weak. They more of a patch than anything, pasted at the end. At best they very vague. Its hard to consider them rules when two DMs can make opposite rulings and still be RAW.
(finally, a sentence that isnt a question )

 

[Brother MacLaren]

is it satisfying to have any old adamantine weapon perform better than a Mattock of the Titans?

It certainly isn't satisfying, and I foresee the problems if this becomes a regular tactic (but, here they know the layout of the cave, which makes it a much more useful idea). I see few reasonable solutions that don't have cascading impacts. Make a judgment call here, and it has effects that reverberate through the campaign.

The "weapon not suited to task" judgment call works fine, up until the dwarf gets a pick.
The "weapon risks being damaged" house-rule is taking away adamantine's most important properties -- it's REALLY GOOD at destroying objects and really hard to damage. And it doesn't match the mechanics for fighting stone golems or animated objects.
The "wielder becomes fatigued" house-rule falls short if it doesn't apply to combat (watch how quickly boxers get tired).
The "require Profession checks or cause cave-in" judgment call would be appropriate in some places but not in here (due to the geometry and the shortness of the tunnel). The cascading impact here is where do you draw the line. A thoqqua's 1-ft diameter hole probably has no chance of causing a cave-in. A delver's 10-ft hole, more likely.
The "can't Power Attack inanimate objects" house-rule results in the odd situation where the evil adamantine idol becomes much easier to destroy if you cast Animated Objects on it. But, with moboesen's in-game explanation, it's the best fix I've seen. It makes damaging objects a much more difficult process.

Looks like rules for damaging objects, like the time for crafting items or the AC for attacking held/worn items, have some serious unintended consequences.

 

[Darklone]

When Power Attacking you are making wild swings, sacrificing accuracy for power.

I would rule that when attacking inanimate objects you are already whacking as hard as you can, since accuracy is of little interest. Thus hitting with all you have is already assumed and implemented into the Hardness rules. Result: No Power attacking allowed.

I don't concur. Whacking harder with a weapon will result in less efficient hits and is pretty likely to damage your weapon.

Power Attack makes more sense as well aimed/timed swing with more precision. Harder to hit but more effect.