Gort
Explorer
Agreed. Angel minions look pretty good too, due to their resistance to fire (and thus Scorching Burst and Flaming Sphere.)
Minions and hps
- Thread starter cbbakke
- Start date
Agreed. Angel minions look pretty good too, due to their resistance to fire (and thus Scorching Burst and Flaming Sphere.)
FireLance
Legend
Okay, here's a wacky thought I just had. Given that tracking individual hit points for each minion seems to go against the basic concept of minions, how about giving each group of minions a collective hit point pool? Each minion that is part of the pool contributes 5 hp + 2 hp/level, so a group of 4 1st-level minions would have a hit point pool of 28 hp.
Now, an attack that hits removes a minion as normal, but it also deals damage to the pool. Effects that deal damage on a miss or deal automatic damage deal damage to the pool (area attacks deal damage for each minion affected; an area effect that affects two minions deals twice its damage to the pool). When the pool reaches 0, minions that are still alive are not killed, but any effect that deals damage (even damage on a miss effects) kills them immediately.
The net effect of this would be that minions get some short-term protection against automatic damage before it starts dropping them immediately. It also means that minions can no longer ignore effects that deal damage on a miss. Even if they don't kill them at first, they will eventually.
Now, an attack that hits removes a minion as normal, but it also deals damage to the pool. Effects that deal damage on a miss or deal automatic damage deal damage to the pool (area attacks deal damage for each minion affected; an area effect that affects two minions deals twice its damage to the pool). When the pool reaches 0, minions that are still alive are not killed, but any effect that deals damage (even damage on a miss effects) kills them immediately.
The net effect of this would be that minions get some short-term protection against automatic damage before it starts dropping them immediately. It also means that minions can no longer ignore effects that deal damage on a miss. Even if they don't kill them at first, they will eventually.
ValhallaGH
Explorer
Interesting idea. I'm not sure if I like it, and it may be too complicated (especially when you have a "creature" that still has hp but no bodies that can use that hp), but it's certainly an interesting idea.
FireLance
Legend
If all the minions are dead from hits, than the minions are defeated even if there are hit points left in the hit point pool. It's kind of like a 3e hydra.
Here is my other idea for Minions.
a) is hte HP threshold that is covered above.
b) Adding a hit value to all auto damage powers against only minions. On normal mobs auto damage works as it currently does. Against Minions they have to make an attack roll. On a hit the mob dies. Thoughts?
a) is hte HP threshold that is covered above.
b) Adding a hit value to all auto damage powers against only minions. On normal mobs auto damage works as it currently does. Against Minions they have to make an attack roll. On a hit the mob dies. Thoughts?
keterys
First Post
I think you're much better off using the 'save' method here. Doesn't require a hit roll, has much the same function, etc. You can even use the "minions get -2 to saves" modification to keep it pretty much in line with people's chance to hit.
I'll echo this. I don't know if I like it, but its one of the more innovative ideas I've seen on this subject.
From listening to the discussions so far, I would say that the group thought seems to worry most about autodamage. I think larger area effects at higher levels are fine. I mean, if my fighter takes all solo killing powers, fighting solos for the group is going to be easier. If the wizard takes big area effects like fireball instead of more direct damage powers, he's going to be better at killing minions.
With that in mind, I like both the save to resist autodamage or the bloodied when first damaged, dead on second ideas. I personally do not like the damage threshold idea, mainly becomes its biased against certain kinds of autodamage. A rain of blows might still purge through minions but the pact blade doesn't, etc.
So far I've been firmly on the save to resist camp, but I'm warming up to the bloodied idea. While I don't like tracking, I think in some ways its faster for me to bloody all the minions that just took autodamage without having to worry about a lot of rolls.
And finally, I think victim is spot on that perhaps the problem with minions isn't the basic minion concept, but their current design in the MM. Ranged minions that scatter don't have the problem facing rain of blows, flaming sphere or most autodamage effects near as much as as melee ones. Minions that have effects when they die are still important to the combat even if they are easily dispatched, etc. I think the same is true with solos, there are solos in the MM I think are flat out better than others.
While I'm always interested in system tweaks to improve play, this may be a case of using the current system rules and simply creating better minions.
keterys
First Post
Unfortunately, many of the most iconic minions are melee based. Further, minions to represent creatures a tier later is an extraordinary tool and many monsters are melee based.
You could, otoh, make it so only minions not intended to be used at range have such built in protections...
We have a rotation of DMs for our gaming group so I will not run for a few weeks but I am giong to test play the saving throw idea for minions.
Here is the detail of the plan.
- Any auto damage that a minion takes (Things like Cleave that take initial hit roll dont work as normal). Instead of just dying the minions make a save roll. If they save they live if not they die.
- The level difference of the mob vs character effects the save roll. A minion 2 levels higher would get a +2 save. a minion two levels lower would get -2.
My question is should the minion get to go before they die since saving throws are made at the end of their action or should this be treated as an interupt that just happens. I am thinking the second for simplisty sake.
Here is the detail of the plan.
- Any auto damage that a minion takes (Things like Cleave that take initial hit roll dont work as normal). Instead of just dying the minions make a save roll. If they save they live if not they die.
- The level difference of the mob vs character effects the save roll. A minion 2 levels higher would get a +2 save. a minion two levels lower would get -2.
My question is should the minion get to go before they die since saving throws are made at the end of their action or should this be treated as an interupt that just happens. I am thinking the second for simplisty sake.
