Minions are alien visitors from another kind of game

[Ulthwithian]

Well, the math regarding AoE attacks vs. minions is breathtakingly elegant, IMO. The math, quite simply, is:

percentage chance to hit ~= percentage of minions targeted that are killed

I think the point above about minions being a different type of ablation needs to be be reiterated. Also, the math regarding 'taking 4 MMs to take down a level 1 mob vs. taking 1 MM to take down a level 1 minion' is very relevant. Is it not a 4:1 Minion:Mob ratio?

I will be looking at the Orc Mobs and develop a model for discussing the actual difference between using 1 mob and 4 minions in this post later. One point that is brutally clear from even a cursory inspection is that 4 minions that have a chance to hit within about 10% of the mob they stem from should do quite a bit more damage against single-target strikes. But I will develop the model and then return to discuss.

Edit: All right, I did a 'quick-and-dirty' analysis on Kathra vs. Orcs. Some data:

Kathra average at-will damage vs. Orc Raider: 5.475 (please note, that this is per swing, not per hit.
Expected number of swings to kill Orc Raider: 8.4016 (hp/avg. dmg. per swing)
Kathra hit chance vs. Orc Drudge: 0.55
Expected number of swings to kill Orc Drudge: 1.818

Orc Raider average damage vs. Kathra: 5.35 (again, per swing and not per hit)
Time alive vs. Kathra: 8.4016 swings
Damage dealt in time alive: 44.95 damage

Orc Drudge average damage vs. Kathra: 2.75


4 Orc Drudge Time alive vs. Kathra (that is, time until 4 Orc Drudges are not alive vs. Kathra): 1.818 rounds
Damage dealt in time alive: 20 (2.75*4*1.818)

3 Orc Drudge Time alive vs. Kathra: 1.818 rounds
Damage dealt in time alive: 15

2 Orc Drudge Time alive vs. Kathra: 1.818 rounds
Damage dealt in time alive: 10

1 Orc Drudge Time alive vs. Kathra: 1.818 rounds
Damage dealt in time alive: 5

Sum of damage: 50

Analysis:

Considering the one-level difference between the Drudge and the Raider, it seems like a balance point assumed would be that one mob and 4 equal-level minions (in the same basic role) should do equivalent damage while alive. Note, though, that the minions survive for less time. Thus, minions are an option to 'front-load' damage.

This is of course completely neglecting the tactical situation, which is actually advantageous to the Minions. If all four Minions are attacking Kathra, Combat Advantage should be granted which is not detailed in the above stats. That can be considered an offsetting advantage against the disadvantage Minions face against AoE attacks.

I can do a more rigorous model on request. If not, I will now focus my attention on Skamos vs. these same Orcs.

 

[Kraydak]

Then don't use minions Kraydak.

Minions are one of the things that are FULLY under the control of the DM (Besides, even if there was no minion concept, how the hell would you use a standard creature in the scenario below?)

Minions are a core concept, and as such, will show up in modules.
Minions are a core concept, and as such, will be used in other mechanics (Monster Summoning, for example, is an obvious place to use minions).

Because minions are core, excising them will be hard. If you gave them a low number of hp and said that any *hit* could kill a minion if the attacker so desired, they would work a lot better. Any extra mechanical difficulty *only shows up* when some participant wants it to (someone who has damage-on-miss abilities wants it to kick in. someone who has an activate-on-bloodied abilities and who chooses to pull his punches to allow it to activate... wants it to activate, people want to take prisoners etc...). Win-win.

 

[Irda Ranger]

A sufficiently high level minion is too strong for the average joe blow - An Orc Minion 6, for example, probably has enough AC to shield it from the febble attacks of the majority of the ill-equipped farm folk that litter the country side.

Actually it's this very glass-ninja aspect of the monster which is part of my problem with the concept. A natural 20 will always kill it. So you can have 21st level Demon Minions fall to a rank of 0th level human archers (assuming the Demons aren't protected from the arrows by a Wall of Wind or some similar reason). Was Smaug a Minion?

It's been my contention that Minions are "out of step" with the rest of the game. Within the context of the game only: what the heck are they? Try to answer that question without using the words "narrative" or "story" or "player's having fun." Those are important considerations under certain circumstances, but it is my contention that games should serve those needs without compromising the elegance of their internal structure and consistency.* The answer should be solely from the perspective of an agent (whether PC or monster, it doesn't matter) within the system. It should address why they have the same BAB, AC and dmg as similarly leveled monsters, but die in one hit rather than 3-5.

*If you consider yourself a "practical" person who does not enjoy fine-tuning designs and systems for the sake of the process (rather than the result) this challenge probably isn't for you.

Now here's a question then.

Should D&D have minions?

IMO, yes. My concerns are related to the implementation.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Minions are a core concept, and as such, will show up in modules.
Minions are a core concept, and as such, will be used in other mechanics (Monster Summoning, for example, is an obvious place to use minions).

The module point has been addressed (and ably, I believe) but the Summoning point is a valid concern. If a Summoning spell results in "1 Level X Minion" there's no good way to swap that out for any other result.

If you gave them a low number of hp and said that any *hit* could kill a minion if the attacker so desired, they would work a lot better.

I disagree that it would work better, but I'm curious why you think Monster Summoning is a problem if the Minion issue is so easily resolved. Doesn't this very statement contradict your earlier statement that excising Minions would be "very hard"? Why not just give them HP equal to their level and be done with it? Now they're bloodied at 1/2 level and a Miss can hurt them (maybe kill them).

 

[Kwalish Kid]

The answer should be solely from the perspective of an agent (whether PC or monster, it doesn't matter) within the system.

There aren't any agents in the system. There are agents in a fantasy world that the system is meant to simulate to a certain degree of accuracy.

 

[Scribble]

Would people have had less of an issue with this minion thing if the "no damage unless direct" thing had been listed as a "power" and not just next to the hitpoints range?

What's the difference between this, and say the ability to heal up damage with a sucessful hit?

Perhaps it would be easier just to think of this ability as an auto second wind that only happens and automatically happens when they take secondary damage?

In game it could be explained as the minion being such a brainwashed loyal fanatic of the cause that they struggle on and ignore damage that should have harmed them.

"My life for you!!!!!"

I think it's really just the difference between ways of thinking about damage and what HP is.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

"The simplest answer is usually the correct answer."
--Occam's Razor

Except when the simplest answer isn't actually Occam's Razor:

One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything

Much like Emerson saying "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", the interpretation often doesn't mean what one would like it to mean.

In this case, Irda Ranger has the minimum necessary entities to explain the objection to minions. Fewer than that, and you aren't talking about the same thing anymore.

 

[Kraydak]

The module point has been addressed (and ably, I believe) but the Summoning point is a valid concern. If a Summoning spell results in "1 Level X Minion" there's no good way to swap that out for any other result.

I clearly disagree with you about the amount of work it will take to erase minions from modules. No worries, the matter will become clearer once we have the full MM.

I disagree that it would work better...

Why wouldn't it work better? You have the full ease of 1-hit 1-kill with the added advantage of being able to use a more complete description if anyone at the table wants to. If you want mooks, you have mooks. If you want low (but non-unity) hp, you have that. Win-win.

... but I'm curious why you think Monster Summoning is a problem if the Minion issue is so easily resolved. Doesn't this very statement contradict your earlier statement that excising Minions would be "very hard"? Why not just give them HP equal to their level and be done with it? Now they're bloodied at 1/2 level and a Miss can hurt them (maybe kill them).

My problem with minions is that they don't mesh well with the rest of DnD's rules. The above change makes them fit in at little/no cost. Remove the problem, and I'm happy.

I would alter my suggestion to: on a hit against a minion, a character may (and generally will) choose to inflict the listed damage+minion's base hp. This change keeps you from auto-1 hitting minions that gained temporary hp/temporary DR etc... If someone gives them such a buff, *that* person is choosing to nix the minion-rules on the defensive side, in the same way that someone who wants a bloodied foe/living prisoner is choosing the nix the minion rules on the offensive side.

Book-keeping simplifications are good if everyone is on the same page. Minion rules should be altered to allow them being dropped if everyone *isn't* on the same page. Doing so requires meshing minions in with the rest of the ruleset.

I would suggest minion hp=normal striker/4ish, in keeping with their xp value.

 

[Rex Blunder]

Within the context of the game only: what the heck are they? Try to answer that question without using the words "narrative" or "story" or "player's having fun."

What'sthe capital of Belgium? Try to answer without saying "Brussels", "the place where sprouts come from" or "more than one brussel".

Minions are not an in-game concept. Hit points are not an in-game concept either, so it's not surprising that there's no in-game concept for people with one of them.

 

[JohnSnow]

Actually it's this very glass-ninja aspect of the monster which is part of my problem with the concept. A natural 20 will always kill it. So you can have 21st level Demon Minions fall to a rank of 0th level human archers (assuming the Demons aren't protected from the arrows by a Wall of Wind or some similar reason). Was Smaug a Minion?

It's been my contention that Minions are "out of step" with the rest of the game. Within the context of the game only: what the heck are they? Try to answer that question without using the words "narrative" or "story" or "player's having fun." Those are important considerations under certain circumstances, but it is my contention that games should serve those needs without compromising the elegance of their internal structure and consistency.* The answer should be solely from the perspective of an agent (whether PC or monster, it doesn't matter) within the system. It should address why they have the same BAB, AC and dmg as similarly leveled monsters, but die in one hit rather than 3-5.

Okay, I've been following this thread without comment for pages.

Irda Ranger, basically, you're claiming that your concerns about minions are solely related to the game rules discrepancy between how the game treats minions. Moreover, you wrote a very impressive treatise with scientific sounding terms like "game theory" "Four-factor system" and "two-factor sytem" (and even some impenetrable jargon like 4FS and 2FS) to prove your point.

However, the simple fact is that your fundamental point is incorrect. A minion is NOT, as you claim, a "2FS creature in a 4FS game." It's just an easily killable 4FS creature. That's it. Full stop.

What they actually represent in game are obstacle opponents. With a single success (hit), they are removed from the game. Morover, they exist to provide tactical options for the DM and more variety in combat scenarios. Like Solo and Elite monsters, Minions allow you to substantically vary the tactical situation faced by the players. Because they have comparable attack bonuses and decent defense scores, they actually pose a substantial threat to characters of their level. As far as damage, it seems their damage levels have been decreased so as to make four of them on average about as dangerous as the single creature they're replacing.

They're at the opposite end of the scale from the solo monster. A dragon (or other solo monster) has 4 times the hit points of a standard monster (or more) and can make multiple attacks in a single round, allowing it to actually fill the combat role of a number of monsters. Thus, it can actually pose a reasonable challenge to an adventuring group all by itself. Each of its attacks is about as damaging (again, on average) as any other creature of its level. Because of its higher hit point total, it also must be hit about 4 times as many times as a standard creature before it goes down.

At the other end of the spectrum is the minion. By contrast to the dragon, a minion has not 4 times the hit points but, effectively, the opposite. If it were replacing creatures on a 4-to-1 basis, you might expect it to have one-quarter as many hit points. It should also do comparably less damage, since, if it has an equal chance to hit, our PC is going to be subject to 4 times as many blows. If we can normalize how many rounds a minion will last, we can calibrate its damage based on the assumption that half the minions will be present throughout the fight (all of them at the beginning, dropping at a constant rate to 0 at the end).

Looking at the Orc excerpt, we can directly compare the 4 Orc Berserker (Level 4 Brute - 175 xp) with the Orc Drudge (Level 4 Minion - 44 XP). They have comparable attack and defense scores, but the minion does about half as much damage (5 hp vs. an avg of 11.5). The Berserker has, effectively, 82 hp (counting its 16 hp heal ability). If we assume our PCs have comparable to-hit bonuses as our orcs (+8, which seems reasonable), they will hit on a roll of 9 or better (60% of the time). Given slightly better average damage, they'll polish off a berserker in 6 hits (about 10 rounds). That's also about how long it would take them to finish off the minions, assuming they must only hit each one once.

By varying the strength of the creatures we can use in a combat, we have created enough variety that allows us to provide an encounter for the group with anywhere from 1 creature in it to 16. Clearly, from a game theory standpoint, minions fit in D&D just fine.

That's all game theory - simply put, minions allow one to create more tactically interesting encounters. Yes, that's often described as being more "fun" because isn't "fun" the point of playing a game? But it's not about "fun" so much as it's about providing interesting tactical situations.

Like the different pieces in chess have different capabilities, the designers are creating a D&D game where different creatures have different uses in the game environment. That tactical variety should make for a more interesting (i.e. "better") game.

Now, if you want to argue from a "gameworld verisimilitude standpoint" that minions are "unrealistic," you actually may have a point. In the "world simulation" aspect of D&D, minions are all about narrative flexibility. That has nothing to do with their role in the game system, however. Conflating the two is where people run into roadblocks and start having to do mental gymnastics. That's because they're, as hong would put it, "thinking too hard about fantasy."

From a gamist standpoint, minions (like Elites and Solos) exist to provide tactical options to the DM.

From a narrative standpoint, minions fill a crucial role - that of the opponent that you can not totally ignore, but that is only a serious threat in great numbers. This is the role filled by Stormtroopers in Star Wars, ninjas in many modern adventure stories, and the monstrous hordes of the dark one in so many fantasy stories (orcs in The Lord of the Rings, trollocs in The Wheel of Time and so forth...).

You don't have to like them, but IMO, they certainly fit, both from a narrative and gamist standpoint.