Mirror Image and Magic Missile

[Shard O'Glase]

By the way, has anyone else noticed the contradiction about targetting a spell on page 148? Up under Casting Time it states that you must make all pertinent decisions about a spell when you begin casting, including the target. Under Aiming a Spell it states that you do not have to select your target until the moment you finish casting the spell.

I hadn't noticed that until recently. During a SM spell debate, people were saying how cool it was because you could place it so it was flanking. And I said yeah if they don't move, according to pg 148 you make the targeting decisions when you start casting the spell, 1 round spells are really limited. They said well under aiming a spell it says. I said huh?

Has this been cleared up in the faq?

 

[Hypersmurf]

As for the bless. That is up to the dm to rule on. I personally would say it effects him like an enemy from the begining because after all, he is an enemy.

And if he was helping the cleric defeat the BBEG, but once the BBEG went down he decided to attack the cleric to keep all the loot for himself?

At time of casting, he was an ally, now he's not.

As for the heat metal. The spell would stop working on one of them and continue on the other (casters choice), since one of them moved out of the secondary range of the spell.

And if he then moved back in range in round four of the spell?

No damage, the spell is gone?
1d4 damage, because (for him) it's the first round of heating?
2d4 damage, because it's the fourth round of the spell?

Another example - a wizard casts Levitate on a willing target, moves him ten feet off the ground, and then sets about doing something else. The target changes his mind, becoming unwilling.

Does he fall to the ground?

-Hyp.

 

[Berk]

And if he was helping the cleric defeat the BBEG, but once the BBEG went down he decided to attack the cleric to keep all the loot for himself?

At time of casting, he was an ally, now he's not.

As how the spell is written the bless would then switch and treat him as an enemy.

And if he then moved back in range in round four of the spell?

No damage, the spell is gone?
1d4 damage, because (for him) it's the first round of heating?
2d4 damage, because it's the fourth round of the spell?

Another example - a wizard casts Levitate on a willing target, moves him ten feet off the ground, and then sets about doing something else. The target changes his mind, becoming unwilling.

Does he fall to the ground?

-Hyp.

If he moved back into range the spell wouldn't affect him anymore since he moved out of range.

The target was willing during the casting of the spell when it took effect. If they become unwilling during the duration (which is just how long the effect lasts) the are still affected.

Using your logic of thinking if I decided not to make my save vs implosion and then 3 rounds later decided that I wanted to I should then get my save even though I'm dead from the effect of the spell.

 

[IceBear]

I'm not actually 100% sure about that, since the core rules don't go into much detail. But from what they do have, that is what they seem to be saying. I view it as casting a web of magic over the target. Even if the target isn't affected by the effect the web produces, the web of magic is still there until it dissipates.

By the way, has anyone else noticed the contradiction about targetting a spell on page 148? Up under Casting Time it states that you must make all pertinent decisions about a spell when you begin casting, including the target. Under Aiming a Spell it states that you do not have to select your target until the moment you finish casting the spell.

That's been addressed in the lastest FAQ or Dragon magazine.

Basically is says that preparing to cast a spell is like picking the ammo for a gun and loading it, THEN you pick your target. So, I guess you don't pick until finish.

IceBear

 

[Hypersmurf]

As how the spell is written the bless would then switch and treat him as an enemy.

-----

The target was willing during the casting of the spell when it took effect. If they become unwilling during the duration (which is just how long the effect lasts) the are still affected.

How can both of these be true using a single interpretation of targetting rules?

The Bless target was an ally when the spell was cast.
The Levitate target was willing when the spell was cast.

Either spells fail when targets cease to meet the conditions: the enemy is no longer Blessed and the Levitatee falls to the ground;

... or they don't: the enemy is still Blessed and the guy is still Levitating.

You can't argue that both are true at the same time!

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

So if a cleric casts Bless on all his allies, and halfway through the first one of them proves to in fact be a traitor, Bless stops working automatically with no conscious thought on the cleric's part?

Since "ally" is not a defined term in 3e, I think it depends on the perception of the cleric. The area of the spell is "all allies within 50 ft." and lasts for 1 minute per level. As long as you are within 50 ft. and the cleric believes you are an ally, then you get the bonus.

If a comrade of the cleric get's controlled during the fight, is he still an ally?

If a druid casts Heat Metal on two creatures standing 25 feet apart, and they both take 5' steps backward so they're no longer within 30 of each other, the spell stops working?

-Hyp.

I don't see why it would. They only needed to be that close together when they were targeted. Nothing in the spell description states that the effect will end if they move apart after that.

 

[Berk]

How can both of these be true using a single interpretation of targetting rules?

The Bless target was an ally when the spell was cast.
The Levitate target was willing when the spell was cast.

Either spells fail when targets cease to meet the conditions: the enemy is no longer Blessed and the Levitatee falls to the ground;

... or they don't: the enemy is still Blessed and the guy is still Levitating.

You can't argue that both are true at the same time!

-Hyp.

You are absolutely impossible. Im-freakin-possible. I grow tired of trying to explain simple things to you. I make it so you can't argue one point anymore then you flip around and throw a different point out at me. It seems like you are just trolling here. Either that or extremely dense.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't see why it would. They only needed to be that close together when they were targeted. Nothing in the spell description states that the effect will end if they move apart after that.

So in the case of the Dominated Monk who becomes an outsider - would the wizard still be able to send him commands through the telepathic link?

The spell requires him to be a humanoid to be targetted - he was. It allows the caster to control the actions of a humanoid - he can no longer be controlled. It allows the caster to send telepathic commands to the target. Nothing in the spell description says this doesn't apply to an outsider.

He's not forced to follow those commands, but can he still receive them?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

So in the case of the Dominated Monk who becomes an outsider - would the wizard still be able to send him commands through the telepathic link?

The spell requires him to be a humanoid to be targetted - he was. It allows the caster to control the actions of a humanoid - he can no longer be controlled. It allows the caster to send telepathic commands to the target. Nothing in the spell description says this doesn't apply to an outsider.

He's not forced to follow those commands, but can he still receive them?

-Hyp.

He's no longer a legal target, so the spell has no effect until he is.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You are absolutely impossible. Im-freakin-possible. I grow tired of trying to explain simple things to you. I make it so you can't argue one point anymore then you flip around and throw a different point out at me. It seems like you are just trolling here. Either that or extremely dense.

Not trolling - trying to find an interpretation without holes.

-Hyp.