Mirror Image and Magic Missile

[Hypersmurf]

No, what he's saying...

That looks awfully like the exact opposite of what he's saying from here...

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

No, what he's saying is if you cast Cat's Grace on your sword the spell would go off, but have no effect and thus not be there for purposes of being dispelled. It's almost identical to it just "fizzling".

IceBear

I'm saying the Cat's Grace would still be on the blade, it just wouldn't have any discernable effect (other than being detectable by detect magic). If you later animated the blade before duration of the Cat's Grace ended, then the animated blade would benefit from the increased dexterity.

If you cast DominatePerson on a 19th level monk (and it worked), and the next day he gained a level (thus becoming an Outsider), would he still be Dominated? No, because he's now the wrong type of target for the spell. If he loses his level the next day for some reason, he would then be under the effects of the Dominate Person spell once again.

Just like an Anti-magic field only suppresses spells within it's area, the spell is still there, waiting until it can function again, until it's duration ends.

 

[Berk]

If you believe that dog over there is an elf, why can't you target it with Charm Person?

Because it's not a person.

Your belief, in this case, is irrelevant.

Out of curiosity... what would happen in your game if the first target of a Chain Lightning was a Major Image?

-Hyp.

Sure. Why wouldn't I be able to target it with a charm person spell and cast the spell on it? It won't have an effect on the dog even if I believe it was a humanoid but I can still target it and cast the spell.

Your belief, in all of your cases, are irrelevant.

If my first target of a chain lightning was a major image it would affect the image and secondary strokes would go off to secondary targets like normal. Either the image would be destroyed or act like it got hurt depending on what the wizard controlling it wanted.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So if a cleric casts Bless on all his allies, and halfway through the first one of them proves to in fact be a traitor, Bless stops working automatically with no conscious thought on the cleric's part?

If a druid casts Heat Metal on two creatures standing 25 feet apart, and they both take 5' steps backward so they're no longer within 30 of each other, the spell stops working?

-Hyp.

 

[IceBear]

I'm saying the Cat's Grace would still be on the blade, it just wouldn't have any discernable effect (other than being detectable by detect magic). If you later animated the blade before duration of the Cat's Grace ended, then the animated blade would benefit from the increased dexterity.

Hmmmm - don't like that ruling (though you're probably right by the rules, I haven't looked). If it's an invalid target for the spell then the spell shouldn't have any effect and instanteously end. I'd rather just have the spell fizzle like Hyper than that

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

So if a cleric casts Bless on all his allies, and halfway through the first one of them proves to in fact be a traitor, Bless stops working automatically with no conscious thought on the cleric's part?

If a druid casts Heat Metal on two creatures standing 25 feet apart, and they both take 5' steps backward so they're no longer within 30 of each other, the spell stops working?

-Hyp.

Those are good questions. I'd say they'd keep working because at the instant the spell was cast they were valid targets and thus the magic comes "into effect". I'm sure there are specific spells that will state that if someone moves outside of a certain range the spell ends, but those are specifically mentioned.

Basically, it's no different than your take. At the instant you cast the spell, if the target is invalid and the spell fizzles. I just have the spell go off but have no effect.

IceBear

 

[Hypersmurf]

Those are good questions. I'd say they'd keep working because at the instant the spell was cast they were valid targets and thus the magic comes "into effect".

So how about the Dominate Person'd monk becoming an outsider?

-Hyp.

 

[Berk]

So if a cleric casts Bless on all his allies, and halfway through the first one of them proves to in fact be a traitor, Bless stops working automatically with no conscious thought on the cleric's part?

If a druid casts Heat Metal on two creatures standing 25 feet apart, and they both take 5' steps backward so they're no longer within 30 of each other, the spell stops working?

-Hyp.

As for the bless. That is up to the dm to rule on. I personally would say it effects him like an enemy from the begining because after all, he is an enemy.

As for the heat metal. The spell would stop working on one of them and continue on the other (casters choice), since one of them moved out of the secondary range of the spell.

 

[IceBear]

See, Berk's got it (I never bothered to look them up )

I don't know what's so relevant about the Dominated monk becoming an outsider to this discussion. I thought your original scenario had Domination cast on an outsider monk that lost a level. I think we both agree that the spell would be lost, we only differ on whether it fizzles or is cast and has no effect.

I think the scenario with the domination on a monk that becomes an outsider is a DM's call. I'd have the spell end as it can no longer effect the monk - the transformation into an outsider breaks the magic if you will.

IceBear

 

[Caliban]

Hmmmm - don't like that ruling (though you're probably right by the rules, I haven't looked). If it's an invalid target for the spell then the spell shouldn't have any effect and instanteously end. I'd rather just have the spell fizzle like Hyper than that

IceBear

I'm not actually 100% sure about that, since the core rules don't go into much detail. But from what they do have, that is what they seem to be saying. I view it as casting a web of magic over the target. Even if the target isn't affected by the effect the web produces, the web of magic is still there until it dissipates.

By the way, has anyone else noticed the contradiction about targetting a spell on page 148? Up under Casting Time it states that you must make all pertinent decisions about a spell when you begin casting, including the target. Under Aiming a Spell it states that you do not have to select your target until the moment you finish casting the spell.