Mirror Image and Magic Missile

[Hypersmurf]

This states that targetted spells destroy mirror images. The only way that could happen is if you could target the images with said spells.

Oh, I agree that that's what the FAQ says. I don't believe it's supported by anything in the Core Rules, but that is what it says.

I've started another thread to see if I can track down the Sage response I'm half-remembering.

But he asked what happens in my world, and in my world, spells that target creatures require creatures to target

-Hyp.

 

[IceBear]

Oh, I agree that that's what the FAQ says. I don't believe it's supported by anything in the Core Rules, but that is what it says.

I've started another thread to see if I can track down the Sage response I'm half-remembering.

But he asked what happens in my world, and in my world, spells that target creatures require creatures to target

-Hyp.

I agree, but then there are many things in the FAQ that aren't supported by the Core Rules (natural 1/20 on Saves for example). Hence, 3.5.

I've never disputed you to be wrong by the core rules. I just like it the way the Sage ruled in the FAQ. To each his own.

IceBear

 

[Murrdox]

So you're basically saying that Magic Missle can defeat a 3rd level spell like Major Image? That just doesn't seem to jive.

So I can create an image of a snarling red dragon, with smoke pouring from his nostrils, the scent of sulfur in the air.

Then some first level wizard can attempt to cast Magic Missle on it... it fizzles, and he instantly knows that it's an illusion. That just seems REALLY wrong to me.

I'm supposed to be able to make the dragon react and such when it's struck to make it appear like it's real and alive.

It just seems that with your interpretation, you can turn "Magic Missle" into the "Illusion Detector" which seems incorrect to me. The spell should go off, and the creator of the Major Image should be able to make the image seem as if it were struck by the spell.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, but Caliban pointed out something to me last night that I didn't realize. A spellcaster always knows whether or not you make your save against a spell.

Thus, if he casts a charm person on an illusion and it has no effect, he knows that it wasn't because it made its saving throw and makes him instantly aware that something's up. It also get's rid of Regis' ploy in "The Crystal Shard" of "pretending" to be charmed as the wizard would know he made the save and not be fooled by his bluff. I've Rule 0'ed that one (mainly because that's the way we've been playing since 3E came out and didn't realize it was wrong ).

IceBear

 

[Berk]

I don't understand how you can say that you can't target an image with a Magic Missle.

So in your land, what the heck happens if I try to cast Magic Missle at a rock? In MY world, a magic missle streaks from my hand, and then hits the rock, causing no effect.

I have a major problem with this interpretation of both Mirror Image and Magic Missle. Mirror Image doesn't DEVIATE anything, it just creates duplicates. It doesn't RANDOMIZE what image you attack. If it did, why the heck would it have that effect on a Magic Missle, but not on an arrow?

And just because Magic Missle's "target" is listed as a creature doesn't mean you can't cast it at other things (at least in MY world).

Magic Missle creates a magical energy missle which unerringly strikes its target. If the target happens to be a creature, then the missle does 1d4+1 points of damage, otherwise, it doesn't affect any "non-creature" target.

Thus, you can cast it at a rock, but all you get is a fancy light show, and not even a scortch mark on a rock.

If you want to say that spells automatically "fizzle" if they don't target something appropriate, that just screws up targets and illusions in general. You'd instantly know ANY illusion was an illusion, just by targetting it with a spell such as MM, and that seems REALLY bad in my view. You want to say that Magic Missle fizzles when you try to cast it at a Major Image, for example??

Can't deny that logic there, plus, since figments are illusions and all that stuff since I am seeing 5 caster or whatever, then I believe that there are 5 casters, or however many there are, there. If I believe that that human over there is real why can't I target it with a magic missile?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I believe that that human over there is real why can't I target it with a magic missile?

If you believe that dog over there is an elf, why can't you target it with Charm Person?

Because it's not a person.

Your belief, in this case, is irrelevant.

Out of curiosity... what would happen in your game if the first target of a Chain Lightning was a Major Image?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

If you believe that dog over there is an elf, why can't you target it with Charm Person?

Because it's not a person.

You can target the dog all you want. You don't even have to believe the dog is an elf, you can target it with Charm Person all you want. The spell just won't work. See the PHB, page 148, Aiming A Spell, Target or Targets, second paragraph: "If you cast a targeted spell on the wrong sort of target, such as casting charm person on a dog, the spell has no effect."

This isn't Magic: The Gathering, where targetting an illegal target causes the spell to fizzle. In 3e, the spell still goes off, but simply has no effect. If the spell has a duration, it still lasts it's normal duration, and if the target changes from an illegal one to a legal one during that time, the spell will then produce it's effect for the remaining part of the duration.

Your belief, in this case, is irrelevant.

True, he can target the dog whether or not he believes it is an elf.

Out of curiosity... what would happen in your game if the first target of a Chain Lightning was a Major Image?

-Hyp.

It would still arc to the secondary targets as normal, and do the secondary damage. The "major image" would of course take no damage, although it might disappear unless it's creator caused it to react appropriately.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This isn't Magic: The Gathering, where targetting an illegal target causes the spell to fizzle. In 3e, the spell still goes off, but simply has no effect. If the spell has a duration, it still lasts it's normal duration, and if the target changes from an illegal one to a legal one during that time, the spell will then produce it's effect for the remaining part of the duration.

So you're suggesting I can have the Sorcerer-10 cast Cat's Grace on my sword to protect the Cleric-9's GMW from area dispels?

An evil mage casts Dominate Person on a Monk-20. The Monk fails his save and SR, but simply laughs - he's an outsider, not a humanoid! The mage teleports away.

Two days later, the Monk is killed and subsequently resurrected, losing a level and becoming a Monk-19. No longer an outsider.

The Domination suddenly kicks in?

I don't buy it. "The spell has no effect", in my mind, precludes anything showing up on a Detect Magic, any lingering effects, and any glowing darts of magical energy.

-Hyp.

 

[IceBear]

No, what he's saying is if you cast Cat's Grace on your sword the spell would go off, but have no effect and thus not be there for purposes of being dispelled. It's almost identical to it just "fizzling".

The same thing with the Domination spell. When the spell is cast, it's cast, but because the target is invalid it has no effect and is lost. Again the same net result as having it fizzle without even starting to be cast.

Like you said, is the "effect" of a spell the spell itself or what the spell does? If Domination created a red ray that struck the person and then dominated him, your interpretation would have the ray not go off at all (which I don't like because it provides a secondary source of information). We would have the ray go out but not dominate the monk.

IceBear

 

[Murrdox]

Thanks for hitting the nail on the head, icebear.

I'm not about to say that if the target is invalid, the spell goes off, but the duration stays the same - thus having wackiness like Hypersmurf's Monk who suddenly becomes dominated.

However, just like Icebear was saying, if "Dominate Person" involved a red ray of crackling energy going from your mind to the mind of the person it was being cast on, even if the target was invalid, you'd still have the ray itself.

If you tried to cast Dominate Person on a major image, the spell goes off, you'd have the ray of red energy, and the wizard controlling the major image could even make the image react as if it had resisted (or failed) the saving throw.... however in this case, the wizard is instantly going to know that something is wrong, since he can't feel a mental presence of any kind.

Similarly, if you cast Magic Missle at a rock, a ray of energy flies at the rock, but it doesn't have any other kind of effect.

I think you're confusing effecting the TARGET and having the spell have an EFFECT at all.

Obviously, if the target of the spell is invalid, the spell will have no effect on the target. A magic missle won't damage a rock, and dominate person won't control a Major Image.

However, that doesn't mean that spells don't have more general "effects" that aren't dependent on the target (like magic missle)

Heck, I assume simple things like little puffs of smoke enveloping spell components, glowing hands when casting cure spells, minor light and sound effects while casting spells. Are you saying none of this stuff ever happens? Sure, it's not in the RULES, fine... but I mean really?