Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[KarinsDad]

An orc under the effects of Mirror Image just ran into that room. I chase him, but see no-one. Then I get stabbed in the side by an invisible foe. The dastardly orc is now also under the effects of a Greater Invisibility spell! I lash out where I believe him to be.

Edit - He didn't cry out in pain, so I must have hit another one of those blasted images. No problem, I can Cleave! I lash out into another square that I believe him to be in. Not there again! Must have been another image! Good thing I have Great Cleave, I lash out again!

Except that none of what you wrote here works.

1) A Major Image cannot emulate invisibility because it is a visual image of something visible (the point I was making to Hyp).

"This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you."

Note: Force here refers to things like a fire.


2) You cannot Cleave off an image, hence, you cannot Great Cleave off an image.


3) Mirror Images of an invisible caster are not applicable until he becomes visible.

"An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect."


Even in your scenario, the character does not get a second swing at the Orc. He either hits the Orc, or he misses. There are no images to hit (i.e. the spell has no effect).

 

[IcyCool]

Heh, I was wondering the same thing. And the answer anyway is no because, unless I've missed something somewhere, in order to actually attack an invisible anything one must be able to see invisible things....in which case the invisible bit is irrelevent.

Well, you missed something then. You may attack an invisible creature by making an attack into the square you think they are standing in. If you chose the correct square, you have a 50% miss chance.

1) A Major Image cannot emulate invisibility because it is a visual image of something visible (the point I was making to Hyp).

I missed that he said Major Image and not Mirror Image.

2) You cannot Cleave off an image, hence, you cannot Great Cleave off an image.

Agreed. There's nothing there to cleave off of. Just like an empty square.

3) Mirror Images of an invisible caster are not applicable until he becomes visible.

I missed that in the spell description the first time through.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1) A Major Image cannot emulate invisibility because it is a visual image of something visible (the point I was making to Hyp).

"This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you."

Is an invisible orc a creature?

I'm making a visual illusion that looks exactly like an invisible orc.

Invisible Image
Illusion (Figment) [Language-Dependent]
Level: Bbn 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Within earshot
Effect: Visual figment of one invisible creature
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

By pointing and describing, the caster creates a visual illusion of an invisible creature.

Any creature who hears the description makes a Sense Motive check (with appropriate circumstance modifiers) opposed by the caster's Bluff check. A successful sense motive check means that that creature is unable to perceive the illusion.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I, personally, love Hyp's Barbarian spells.

 

[Ranes]

Re-arrange the following:

Compendium World Hypersmurf's EN Spell

 

[Tarangil]

I don't think I'd really allow the cleave with a mirror image myself. Usually when the fighter takes one down with the cleave, they're expecting and "feeling" the Killing blow, and are able to adjust accordingly. However when a fighter hits a mirror image and readying for the "feeling" of hitting something solid...and doesn't, I'd say that he'd have to recuperate from the hard swing and losing any cleave benefits.

Maybe for your basic cleave, a reflex save DC 14 will allow the extra attack. It may also make sense to allow an extra great cleave attack for every point your dex gives you, and maybe more if you have Combat reflexes.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I understand the arguments and agree that per the RAW, figments are not creatures and thus cannot be Cleaved. I House Rule my games to allow it, because Cleave (and especially Great Cleave) see little enough action as it is, IMO.

I do have a question, though. "Any successful attack against an image destroys it." Would a fireball spell be considered a successful attack?

If not, the spell seems extremely powerful vs. spells. Most targetted spells specify a "creature or creatures" as a target, so Mirror Image grants the caster an 80%+ immunity against those (without even losing an image each time). If area spells aren't effective either, that leaves Dispel Magic and individual melee attacks as the only ways to get rid of the images.

Extreme melee defense. Extreme spell defense. I guess I didn't realize Mirror Image was quite so strong.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I do have a question, though. "Any successful attack against an image destroys it." Would a fireball spell be considered a successful attack?

No - the spell specifies that figments react to area spells (such as looking like they're burned after a fireball), which they couldn't do if the fireball made them disappear.

But, of course, if you place the fireball so that it encompasses all the images, you know that the caster's one of them!

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

I don't think I'd really allow the cleave with a mirror image myself. Usually when the fighter takes one down with the cleave, they're expecting and "feeling" the Killing blow, and are able to adjust accordingly. However when a fighter hits a mirror image and readying for the "feeling" of hitting something solid...and doesn't, I'd say that he'd have to recuperate from the hard swing and losing any cleave benefits.

Maybe for your basic cleave, a reflex save DC 14 will allow the extra attack. It may also make sense to allow an extra great cleave attack for every point your dex gives you, and maybe more if you have Combat reflexes.

Either that or he swipes right through and into the next one before he even knows what's happening. No explanation really works well, when you get right down to it.

 

[KarinsDad]

I do have a question, though. "Any successful attack against an image destroys it." Would a fireball spell be considered a successful attack?

"Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball)."

If not, the spell seems extremely powerful vs. spells. Most targetted spells specify a "creature or creatures" as a target, so Mirror Image grants the caster an 80%+ immunity against those (without even losing an image each time). If area spells aren't effective either, that leaves Dispel Magic and individual melee attacks as the only ways to get rid of the images.

You are right. Any creature as target spell can still hit the caster, you just have to get lucky.

However, there are spells that can take out one or more figments:

Acid Splash
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Bigby's Crushing Hand
Bigby's Forceful Hand
Bigby's Grasping Hand
Creeping Doom
Disintegrate
Enervation
Flame Blade
Gate
Insect Plague
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mordenkainen's Sword
Planar Ally
Planar Ally, Lesser
Polar Ray
Prismatic Sphere
Produce Flame
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Frost
Resilient Sphere (if you consider all images to be in a 7+ foot radius)
Scorching Ray
Searing Light
Shadow Conjuration
Shadow Evocation
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Shambler
Simulacrum
Spectral Hand (combined with touch spells that affect targets or opponents)
Spiritual Weapon
Storm of Vengeance (if the DM allows the bolts to hit)
Summon Monster
Summon Nature's Ally
Summon Swarm

Let alone other spells from other source books.


And Mirror Image, although potent at lower levels, starts falling apart against those multi-attack full round combatant types (like archers, rogues with two weapons, and other combatant types).

Summon spells are especially nice since you can summon multiple creatures which each can have multiple attacks such as claw/claw/bite. The AC of the figments is fairly low.

Swarm spells are even better because they wipe out all of the images immediately.


One thing that players and DMs alike should realize is that the Mirror Imaged caster is a big target. He has such a good defense that most everyone on the opposition (who knows what Mirror Image does) should target him.

He is shouting: "I am a spell caster. Come get me!"