Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[Hypersmurf]

Swarm spells are even better because they wipe out all of the images immediately.

Are you sure?

Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed.

-Hyp.

 

[FireLance]

I wonder how many people actually play the game in the extremely literal fashion that they argue in the Rules forum.

And Mirror Image, although potent at lower levels, starts falling apart against those multi-attack full round combatant types (like archers, rogues with two weapons, and other combatant types).

What about a fighter with Whirlwind Attack?

WHIRLWIND ATTACK
When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

Is an image an "opponent", or does only the wizard who cast the spell count as an "opponent"? If the only targets that the fighter can attack are the images (the real wizard happens to be out of his reach), does his Whirlwind Attack automatically fail? What about spell effects with AC and hit points such as a spectral hand or a Bigby's clenched fist? Are they separate "opponents" from the wizard that created them? Can a fighter target them with Whirlwind Attack?

How would Cleave work with such spell effects? By the argument that Cleave only works when you drop a "creature", you can't Cleave off a spectral hand or a clenched fist (What's the Wisdom and Charisma of a spectral hand? A clenched fist?) although you can cleave off what you know (because you made the Will save) to be quasi-real fiendish dire rat summoned by a shadow conjuration spell.

Well, this being the Rules forum, them's the rules. Fortunately, I can always interpret them whichever way I want in my games (or house-rule them, as some posters will undoubtedly say - whatever, makes no difference to me).

 

[Dryfus]

You have convinced me. The wording of Cleave does allow him to drop a foe and then attack the Wizard. The extra melee attack is against the Wizard and melee attacks can hit images.


He drops a foe and then attempts the Cleave.

If the selection is the Wizard, he has a chance to hit and damage him.

If the selection is an Image, he has a chance to hit and destroy it.


What he cannot do is "drop an image" and then Cleave. That is still not allowed because he did not drop a creature.

Lets see what the SRD says...

: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

EMPHASIS MINE.

So, if I deal enough damage to make it drop, which, accordig to the spell description is just if an attack strikes. Hence I have done enough damage to make the image drop .

Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.
Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.
An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)

So, using just RAW, cleave should work against mirror image because you are attacking a creature and just happen to hit an image.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This is a very informative thread. My thanks to KD, Hyp, and everyone who's contributed. Threads that cause me to think of rules conundrums I'd never have considered are one of the main reasons I come to this forum.

As such, I think I'm going to House Rule this one, personally. I'm simply not comfortable with Mirror Image being 80% as effective as Spell Turning (defensively), for the cost of only a 2nd-level spell and no degradation. Yes, an archer or barbarian can spend two rounds clearing the images, but it's still far too effective IMO.

If the images are treated as creatures, the spell is still quite useful (I've yet to see a PC take Great Cleave, it comes up so rarely,) but does not provide the same protection from even the highest-level targetted spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

Are you sure?

Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed.

Yes. I considered your quote here when I posted it, but I thought of a way around it. Plus, I like the concept that there is a low level negation spell to Mirror Image (that 4 of the 5 main spell casting classes can get), just like Shield negates Magic Missile or Haste negates Slow.


Your quote here does not state that they "only attack creatures". It effectively states that they "only damage creatures".


"Any successful attack against an image destroys it."

This does not state a successful attack roll, nor does it state that actual damage has to occur. The attack just has to occur.

Swarms can only damage creatures, but they can still attack everything they swarm. They just do not damage everything they swarm.


"In order to attack, it moves into an opponent's space, which provokes an attack of opportunity."

The images are an opponent. Hence, they attempt to attack the opponent, they just fail to damage it. It can still be considered a successful attack, just not successful damage. This is similar to when they attempt to attack a creature with DR high enough that their damage does not get through. Successful attack, not successful damage.


The Swarm spells does not "Target: Creature" like many spells.

"You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area."

"Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets."

The swarm attempts to attack the caster. They must then select from indistinguishable targets. Now, a given DM might rule that the swarm can only attack "one target" at a time due to literal game mechanics here, but I look at the fact that it is a swarm. It is attacking everything there. It is a cumulative effect of many tiny bites that results in the damage that does occur. But, a literal reading indicates that it is a single attack per round.


I could also see how a literal reading of your quote might prevent a given DM from allowing it (i.e. default thinking = creatures only), but I prefer to use the loophole, just due to the power of Mirror Image.


And even if you do not allow the swarm to auto-destroy all of the images, you should either allow it to auto-hit the caster (like all other creatures in the area of a swarm), or have it either take out an image or damage the caster (depending on the random roll) every round (just like other attacks against the Mirror Image spell). In either case, it is still a fairly effective spell against the defense of a Mirror Image spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

So, if I deal enough damage to make it drop, which, accordig to the spell description is just if an attack strikes. Hence I have done enough damage to make the image drop .

So? Drop the image all you want, it still does not trigger a Cleave.

"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop"

You forgot the first part of that sentence in your quote.

You can destroy the image with your first melee attack. No problem.

But, the figment is not a creature you can drop. It is a figment you can destroy. Whether you allow figments to be "dropped" or not is irrelevant. They are still not creatures. Cleave only triggers when you drop a creature, not when you destroy a figment or destroy an object.


It is irrelevant that you were attempting to attack a creature as your intent. The illusion fooled you and you ended up attacking an image. An image is not a creature, hence, it does not trigger the Cleave.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, an archer or barbarian can spend two rounds clearing the images, but it's still far too effective IMO.

I can understand that.

In our game, our PCs swarm all over a Mirror Imaged opponent. Sometimes, allowing something to be "too potent" ends up making it a major liability.

Course, our PCs swarm spell casters in general. They learned a long time ago to prevent an enemy spellcaster from getting off more than a spell or two.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Wow I'm sorry to have missed the latest cleave/MI thread!

Hey how about a quick fix to the whole problem? At least, for those in the cleave-and-target-images camp.

Classify images as: Creature (Figment)

Add text to the MI spell that classifies images as creatures with the "figment" sub-type. I beieve this may also help Illusion spells failing to fool when a caster targets a "figment" and the spell fails, revealing that the figment creature is in fact an image and not a targetable creature.

Is it this a horrible idea? Would it result in a serious (i.e. bad) repercusions? We've used it thus far with no problems, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't something bad we have yet to spot about it.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Not according to the rules. According to the rules, the images are figments, not creatures. And according to the rules, Cleave only works on creatures.

Now, according to the FAQ, ...

Which sounds like a complete rules lawyer type of answer.

By your logic I could cleave a door with animate object cast on it and then attack the goblin behind the door when I smash the door.

But I cannot attack a normal door and when I smash through it then cldave the goblin behind because it was just a normal door and not an animated one.

Yeah, the spirit of the rule has just been driven over spit on and generally smashed into a million pieces by the letter of the rule. ;-)

 

[KarinsDad]

Which sounds like a complete rules lawyer type of answer.

By your logic I could cleave a door with animate object cast on it and then attack the goblin behind the door when I smash the door.

But I cannot attack a normal door and when I smash through it then cldave the goblin behind because it was just a normal door and not an animated one.

Yeah, the spirit of the rule has just been driven over spit on and generally smashed into a million pieces by the letter of the rule. ;-)

Yup. Magic does weird things to feats.

And your point?

Maybe they shouldn't have put the word creatures into the Cleave feat.


Feats in general can have weird results.

For example, a 10th level Fighter with a 2 handed sword can use Power Attack to demolish a masonry wall in four or fewer blows (doing 30+ points of damage against hardness 8, 60+ with a critical). But, does it make sense that a 2 handed sword should survive such powerful blows? Which should break first, the wall or the blade?

Sometimes, weird things happen when you follow the rules. Do you correct every single "suspending of disbelief" rule that you see in the game?