Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[Storm Raven]

I didn't once state in this thread that you said that it was allowed by RAW. You make inferences out of thin air.

But you did get into the idea that the level of a spell is "irrelevent" to determining what works against it and what doesn't. A position that is pretty much silly, given that a reasonable evaluation the effect and usefulness of a spell is almost necessarily a function of its level. And then switched your argument to "I'm just bothered by saying the core rules allow it", which has no bearing on your discussion concerning my statements. And then got huffy when I pointed out that I didn't say that. You do like to present a moving target don't you?

 

[Jarrod]

I'm on the side of letting it work.

What if a character is fighting illusory (figments, can that even happen?) monsters and drops one? If it was real, they'd get a cleave; since it's not, they don't? But it dropped the same way...

Wooden bars: object, no Cleave. Animate the wooden bars: animated object, therefore a creature (and worth XP), cleave. Animate the wooden bars and have them stand still...

This is getting into "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, so..." territory.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'll point out that if you can animate the wooden bars, you should have them move out of the way.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah...but here is the root of the dilemma. The term "creature", as defined in the glossary of the PHB, describes a creature as "A living, or otherwise active being, not an object" My contention is that an illusory duplicate of a character (either PC or NPC) would qualify as an "otherwise active being". My esteemed opponent(s) disagree. Therefore it really just boils down to opinion/interpretation, however the FAQs from WoC seem to support my interpretation.

Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Can a figment perceive its environment? Can it tell the difference between itself and things that are not itself? What's its Wisdom score? What's it's Charisma score?

-Hyp.

 

[IcyCool]

Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

By that definition, a figment from Mirror Image is an object. As an object, it can be sundered, can't it?.

 

[KarinsDad]

But you did get into the idea that the level of a spell is "irrelevent" to determining what works against it and what doesn't. A position that is pretty much silly, given that a reasonable evaluation the effect and usefulness of a spell is almost necessarily a function of its level.

What is silly is saying that merely because a spell is low level, you should be able to bypass the effects it has in a variety of ways that you would not be able to do if the spell was higher level.

 

[Sejs]

So if I understand correctly, the main issue is that the images are Figments rather than Creatures.

A couple of questions, then:

- Does it matter that the Figments in question are mimicing a Creature? How about the fact that until you've interacted with them you can't tell the difference between the two?

- If the Figment of a Creature/Actual Creature lines are immutable, would a ranger with the appropriate Favored Enemy be able to pick out the real caster every time by tagging the one their FE bonus applies to? If not, then why?

 

[KarinsDad]

By that definition, a figment from Mirror Image is an object. As an object, it can be sundered, can't it?.

No. You cannot sunder unattended objects.

Strange, but true.

If you want to damage an unattended object, you can attack it though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd like to answer...

Well, all right, but you hadn't made Storyteller's assertions about lack of substance 'making it easier' to cleave, so it's not as much fun

E) I thought that, if you close your eyes against someone w/ Mirror Image, you negate the use of Mirror Image altogether. When you are blind, you select a square and swing into that square. If there happens to be a person in that square, and your attack roll was high enough to hit him, you roll the 50% miss chance to see if you really did hit him. So it counters Mirror Image, because you aren't "selecting a target", you are selecting a square into which you are attacking.

True. Make it a square containing a Mirror Image of an invisible pixie sorcerer when you can't see invisible, then.

E1a. Is the image popped if you make the miss chance and hit the AC?
E1b. Does this allow a Cleave?

Leading to F1a: If there's a square that doesn't contain a Mirror Image of an invisible pixie sorcerer when you can't see invisible (nor any creatures), can an attack into that square yield a Cleave?

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

No. You cannot sunder unattended objects.

Strange, but true.

If you want to damage an unattended object, you can attack it though.

Heh, but the images move with you - wouldn't that make them attended objects?