Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[green slime]

If there's a square that doesn't contain a Mirror Image of an invisible pixie sorcerer when you can't see invisible (nor any creatures), can an attack into that square yield a Cleave?

-Hyp.

Yes, if you successfully make it (the square) drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it).

 

[Storyteller01]

In other words, could a PC with a high enough Spot check unerringly pick the real caster of the spell, because he/she has a shadow and the images do not?

SRD description states that you can't tell the difference between the mage and the images via sight or sound. Other tactics are always available though.


EDIT: At least not when they move through each other. I'm guessing this covers all bases (shadows, shuffling, etc). You might check for foot prints though.


From the SRD:
"You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other."

 

[Storyteller01]

Double post

 

[Nail]

It's pretty clear (without tortured logic) that figments are not creatures. It's also pretty clear (so long as you runderstand how the feat is used) that cleaving is not simply "following through" on a swing.

So beyond arguing these points, upon what other reasons do the counter-argument (cleave image = yes) stand?

 

[KarinsDad]

Heh, but the images move with you - wouldn't that make them attended objects?

No. It means they move with you.

To be precise, Sunder does not allow you to sunder objects that are neither carried nor worn.

Note: If the Sunder conversation is leading towards Sundering an image and then Cleaving the caster with the Combat Brute feat, that does not work either. Cleave only applies to creatures (and Hyp has definitively illustrated that figments do not have Wisdom, hence, they are not creatures), so even if you tried this trick, it will only work if you manage to target the caster. If you target an image with the Cleave, the Cleave automatically fails.

Ditto for merely killing an opponent and then trying to Cleave the Mirror Imaged Wizard next to him. If you target the Wizard, you might hit. If you target an image with the Cleave, the Cleave automatically fails.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Can a figment perceive its environment? Can it tell the difference between itself and things that are not itself? What's its Wisdom score? What's it's Charisma score?

-Hyp.

Well done.

I was going to check to see if all creatures had to have hit points when I got home, but this works.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's pretty clear (without tortured logic) that figments are not creatures. It's also pretty clear (so long as you runderstand how the feat is used) that cleaving is not simply "following through" on a swing.

So beyond arguing these points, upon what other reasons do the counter-argument (cleave image = yes) stand?

Fun.

Not the rules, but a reasonable reason to house rule it.

 

[Sigg]

It's pretty clear (without tortured logic) that figments are not creatures. It's also pretty clear (so long as you runderstand how the feat is used) that cleaving is not simply "following through" on a swing.

So beyond arguing these points, upon what other reasons do the counter-argument (cleave image = yes) stand?

No logic need be tortured....no quote or reference from the rules has been given which states that the duplicates created by a mirror image spell can not be cleaved. On the contrary, WoC (that would be the people who wrote the rules and designed the game) seems to be taking the official position that the duplicates can indeed be targetted with a cleave. Hence my assertion that I don't need to prove my point more than I have, as I'm simply agreeing with the seemingly offical interpretation of the rules.

I do understand quite well how the cleave feat is used. No understanding is really needed though because the feat description states quite clearly that the feat is indeed following through on a swing. It's right there in black and white....right in the book. Nothing which follows in the feat description contradicts this. Where do you get the idea that it isn't following through when the feat description itself clearly states that it is? Heck, the name of the feat itself implies this as well.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Note: If the Sunder conversation is leading towards Sundering an image and then Cleaving the caster with the Combat Brute feat, that does not work either.

Doesn't Combat Brute only trigger when you destroy a weapon or shield?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I do understand quite well how the cleave feat is used. No understanding is really needed though because the feat description states quite clearly that the feat is indeed following through on a swing. It's right there in black and white....right in the book. Nothing which follows in the feat description contradicts this. Where do you get the idea that it isn't following through when the feat description itself clearly states that it is? Heck, the name of the feat itself implies this as well.

How do you cinematically describe dropping a goblin ten feet to the north with a longspear, and Cleaving into the goblin ten feet to the south, when your allies stand to the east and west, as 'following through on a swing'?

-Hyp.