Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[Sigg]

Sigg, you've said this before, and it's no more true now than when you first wrote it. The quote or reference you are seeking is in the feat. In brief, you must cleave "off" of an attack on a creature. If you wish, someone could quote the relevant text. And again, as quoted (etc), a figment is not a creature. Q.E.D.

No, you don't. I'm not being snarky here; you just haven't thought through how the feat is used in play. See Hyper's post.

It does say it cleaves off a creature. Creature, as defined in the glossary, is "A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangably." I direct your attention to the "living or otherwise active being" portion of the definition. This seems to tell me that the "creature" doesn't have to be living. Unless you're trying to say that a mirror image is actually an object, there is nothing in the definition of "creature" that prohibits my considering the image to be a "creature" for the purposes of the cleave feat. Also, apparently, WoC also doesn't seem to see a conflict as they have apparently stated in their (dubiously) official FAQs that cleave can indeed be used on mirror images.

I really don't need to think about how cleave is used in play...I've used it in play many, many times. I've never asserted that the cleave feat made a whole lot of sense in certain applications, only that the rules don't seem to explicitly prohibit the use of cleave versus the mirror image spell duplicates. Now I think I shall leave this dead horse to rest in peace. This has been a most stimulating discussion however.

 

[Sigg]

If your interpretation doesn't work.....why not change your interpretation?

Alas...I'm a glutton...

When I DM I do change my interpretation....I don't allow cleaves with P weapons. That is a house rule though, and not relevant to the topic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I direct your attention to the "living or otherwise active being" portion of the definition. This seems to tell me that the "creature" doesn't have to be living.

Right. An undead or construct, for example, is a non-living creature. It has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score.

Unless you're trying to say that a mirror image is actually an object, there is nothing in the definition of "creature" that prohibits my considering the image to be a "creature" for the purposes of the cleave feat.

Ah, but what's its Wisdom? What's its Charisma? A creature requires both...

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

I like and gain from this discussion too, FWIW.

It does say it cleaves off a creature. Creature, as defined in the glossary, is "A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangably." I direct your attention to the "living or otherwise active being" portion of the definition. This seems to tell me that the "creature" doesn't have to be living.

Quite so. See creatures of the Construct or Undead type. {EDIT: Beaten by Hyp...again. }

Did you see Hyp's post/quote about Wisdom and Charisma? The rest of your answer is there. Figments are not creatures.

 

[Nail]

Alas...I'm a glutton....

You remind me of myself when I was pounded on about Psions about 6 months ago......

 

[KarinsDad]

It does say it cleaves off a creature. Creature, as defined in the glossary, is "A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangably." I direct your attention to the "living or otherwise active being" portion of the definition. This seems to tell me that the "creature" doesn't have to be living. Unless you're trying to say that a mirror image is actually an object, there is nothing in the definition of "creature" that prohibits my considering the image to be a "creature" for the purposes of the cleave feat. Also, apparently, WoC also doesn't seem to see a conflict as they have apparently stated in their (dubiously) official FAQs that cleave can indeed be used on mirror images.

I really don't need to think about how cleave is used in play...I've used it in play many, many times. I've never asserted that the cleave feat made a whole lot of sense in certain applications, only that the rules don't seem to explicitly prohibit the use of cleave versus the mirror image spell duplicates. Now I think I shall leave this dead horse to rest in peace. This has been a most stimulating discussion however.

What part of Creatures need a minimum Wisdom of 1 and minimum Charisma of 1 is unclear to you?

What part of "otherwise active being, not an object" is refering to constructs and undead (which do have a Wisdom of 1 or higher and Charisma of 1 or higher) is unclear to you?

 

[KarinsDad]

You remind me of myself when I was pounded on about Psions about 6 months ago......

Yes, but at least you had a reasonable and debatable position, even if some people disagreed with it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And a deep breath, all... let's keep it civil.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Jack Simth]

What part of Creatures need a minimum Wisdom of 1 and minimum Charisma of 1 is unclear to you?

Well... that's not quite accurate; a creature needs a wisdom and a charisma score; it can't have a - for it's ability in those categories; but one does not cease to be a creature when ability damaged or abilty drained down to 0 wisdom or 0 charisma (although one does cease to be able to act under such circumstances....)

 

[Sejs]

No. It means they move with you.

The distinction between the two is hazy. I'm wearing a backpack. I am not paying any attention to the items in my backpack, but they are considdered attended. Active possession seems to be the brush 'attended' is inked with. I'm splitting an irrelevent hair here, but all the same, the argument could be made.

Ditto for merely killing an opponent and then trying to Cleave the Mirror Imaged Wizard next to him. If you target the Wizard, you might hit. If you target an image with the Cleave, the Cleave automatically fails.

Er, wait, so by that interpretation (e.g., you can only cleave into creatures) then Cleave automatically bypasses Mirror Image altogether if the caster is within reach?

By the RAW there's nothing to suggest it's not a Supernatural ability.

Don't base an argument off the "it doesn't say it's not X" card. It goes to bad places, and isn't a particularly strong point to begin with.