Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[Nail]

Yes, but at least you had a reasonable and debatable position, even if some people disagreed with it.

Well, I thought so, anyway.

Spoiler

...and I still do! (laughs)

.....but the point is: occasionally you'll find yourself with no ground left to stand on. When that happens (to continue the motiff), you'd best stand some place else.

 

[Sigg]

I didn't see, in the definition of "creature" that was so bandied about earlier, that wis or cha are required for a creature to be a "living or otherwise active being". What I have seen follows:

pg. 43 of the D&D FAQs from the WoC website:
"For all intents and purposes, the figments from a foe's mirror image spell are your foes. You aim spells and your attacks at the figments just as though they were real creatures."

"If you have the Cleave or Great Cleave feat, destroying an image with a melee attack triggers the feat (and your cleaving attack might well strike the spell user instead of another image)."

Since the FAQs have been described as official rules clarifications, I feel I'm right in interpreting the figments of the spell as "creatures" for the purposes of the cleave feat...despite the seeming lack of wis and cha (although it could be argued as well that the duplicates share the wis and cha of the caster, or limited wis and cha infused in them by the magic of the spell).

 

[Nail]

Uh oh.....this thread is about to be turned into a "Errata vs FAQ" thread. Shucks.

 

[KarinsDad]

I didn't see, in the definition of "creature" that was so bandied about earlier, that wis or cha are required for a creature to be a "living or otherwise active being". What I have seen follows:

Now you know.

So, why are you still claiming that figments are creatures when the rules state otherwise?

pg. 43 of the D&D FAQs from the WoC website:
"For all intents and purposes, the figments from a foe's mirror image spell are your foes. You aim spells and your attacks at the figments just as though they were real creatures."

Precisely.

Note the word "aim".

Aiming at a figment is one thing. Actually being successful with a spell or attack against it is another.

To be successful, you have to meet the benefits of the feat (in the case of Cleave, a creature) or the target of the spell (in the case of Magic Missile, a creature).

No exceptions.

If you attempt to Cleave a caster with Mirror Image up (according to RAW), you only hit if the target you aimed at is the caster.

If you attempt to Magic Missile a caster with Mirror Image up (according to RAW), you only hit if the target you aimed at is the caster. Any missile aimed at a figment does not even cast.

"If you have the Cleave or Great Cleave feat, destroying an image with a melee attack triggers the feat (and your cleaving attack might well strike the spell user instead of another image)."

Since the FAQs have been described as official rules clarifications, I feel I'm right in interpreting the figments of the spell as "creatures" for the purposes of the cleave feat...despite the seeming lack of wis and cha (although it could be argued as well that the duplicates share the wis and cha of the caster, or limited wis and cha infused in them by the magic of the spell).

It could be argued, but not by RAW.

With regard to the FAQ, yes, it states what it states.

It is not RAW and hence a rules addition, but it does state that you can cleave mirror images.

Nobody is disagreeing with you that the FAQ states that.

We are disagreeing with you that RAW states that.

With regard to RAW, you are incorrect.

With regard to the FAQ, you are correct.

Since your "the FAQ trumps RAW" is the final card in your hand to play, don't expect anyone here to change their minds over that.

 

[Sigg]

Uh oh.....this thread is about to be turned into a "Errata vs FAQ" thread. Shucks.

Sorry :\ I didn't make the damn things official.

 

[KarinsDad]

Er, wait, so by that interpretation (e.g., you can only cleave into creatures) then Cleave automatically bypasses Mirror Image altogether if the caster is within reach?

Not according to the Mirror Image spell itself.

"Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment."

When you are cleaving, you are still attempting to attack a creature. Unfortunately, if you select incorrectly, you are instead attempting to attack a figment and you prevent your own feat from working by definition of the feat (useable only against creatures).


Your interpretation ignores the text of the Mirror Image spell. The only valid interpretation is one which follows ALL of the rules.

 

[Nail]

or...put more succinctly: "The FAQ is wrong often enough to be untrustworthy."

 

[Storyteller01]

Okay, quick question:

Excluding arguements based on semantics, why is it a bad thing to have Cleavable Mirror Images?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I didn't see, in the definition of "creature" that was so bandied about earlier, that wis or cha are required for a creature to be a "living or otherwise active being".

It's not in the definition of creature; it's in the definition of 'Nonabilities' in the Monster Manual.

Quoted again:
Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

-Hyp.

 

[Sigg]

Now you know.

So, why are you still claiming that figments are creatures when the rules state otherwise?



Precisely.

Note the word "aim".

Aiming at a figment is one thing. Actually being successful with a spell or attack against it is another.

To be successful, you have to meet the benefits of the feat (in the case of Cleave, a creature) or the target of the spell (in the case of Magic Missile, a creature).

No exceptions.

If you attempt to Cleave a caster with Mirror Image up (according to RAW), you only hit if the target you aimed at is the caster.

If you attempt to Magic Missile a caster with Mirror Image up (according to RAW), you only hit if the target you aimed at is the caster. Any missile aimed at a figment does not even cast.



It could be argued, but not by RAW.

With regard to the FAQ, yes, it states what it states.

It is not RAW and hence a rules addition, but it does state that you can cleave mirror images.

Nobody is disagreeing with you that the FAQ states that.

We are disagreeing with you that RAW states that.

With regard to RAW, you are incorrect.

With regard to the FAQ, you are correct.

Since your "the FAQ trumps RAW" is the final card in your hand to play, don't expect anyone here to change their minds over that.

FAQs "trumps" RAW isn't my card or my hand. They are described by WoC themselves as rules clarifications. If you have a problem with that, talk to WoC. Until then, figments created by the mirror image spell are targetable by the cleave feat, whether because they are considered creatures or because the cleave isn't restricted to just "creatures". Officially....according to the rules as written by WoC, and then clarified by them in the FAQs.

BTW, there is nothing that states anywhere that magic missiles can't be cast at a mirror image either.

Just to sum up...

There is no line in the rules that states that a mirror image specifically cannot be considered a "creature".

There is no line in the rules stating specifically that Cleave can ONLY be used against a "creature" and nothing else.

And finally there is no line anywhere in the rules which states that the images created by a mirror image spell specifically are prohibited from being targetted by ANY specific form of attack.