MM excerpt: phane

[Falling Icicle]

Well, actually according to the new monster development article, for every two levels you add to a monster, you also add +1 damage to it. Now it seems to me like the wotc team used a bit of handwavium to generate the original phane (it has other advantages that compensate for its low damage output, not taking damage, for example) but if it was a brute monster with no striking secondary abilities, (like the Tarrasque, who's primary and only ability is Nom! Nom! Nom!), I'd think that it would get the +1/2 levels damage.

It's not just the Phane. Not a single monster I've seen seems to add 1/2 its level to damage. The Pit Fiend is level 26 and only does 1d12 + 11 damage. The recently revealed War Devil is level 22 and does 4d4 + 8. This damage is simply... pathetic. Even a high level Wizard could laugh off these attacks.

The monster advancement rules seem to be just a very oversimplified way of handling it. They even say you shouldn't increase a monster's level by more than 5 with that method, and looking at the pitiful damage of epic monsters, the reasons for that are obvious. It wouldn't be too long before you had orcs out-damaging Pit Fiends.

Also, I'd like to take the chance to state once again that it looks like PCs will get half their level added to damage, based on two observations (that may or may not be right),

1.) The aforementioned monster advancement rules
2.) Look at how many hitpoints the Phane has! Just look at it! Its unreasonable to expect PCs at that level to kill that in a reasonable time, unless they got the damage boost, or so I think.

prototype00

I really hope I'm wrong. But the books have already gone to print, and the newly revealed devil and phane stats still show this problem. This has me very worried. I don't want to take 30 rounds to kill one elite monster. 4th edition was supposed to make the rules work just as well at high levels as it does at low levels. I certainly don't consider it working well when it takes 10 times as long to kill things at the epic tier as it did at the heroic tier...

 

[Zweischneid]

You know how in pro football, the first time a hot shot young rookie plays a game, someone slams him to the ground and, while he's writhing in pain, yells at him "Welcome to the pros, m**********r!"

Yeah, that's what getting to epic level is like.

So epic level'll feel like competitive sports with little at stake on failure but personal pride and ambitions?

And here I thought heros would pass the sparring stage of "just-get-back-up-and-try-harder" towards the "you-are-our-last-and-only-hope-and-if-you-fail-the-village/nation/world-is-doomed" stage before they even graduate to level 1 ;(

 

[med stud]

So epic level'll feel like competitive sports with little at stake on failure but personal pride and ambitions?

Ever read the illiad?

EDIT: Or any old myth, by the way. The competition is a very common theme throughout the old epics.

 

[Shadeydm]

Ever read the illiad?

Yes, that would be the one where people actually died...

 

[Zweischneid]

Ever read the illiad?

EDIT: Or any old myth, by the way. The competition is a very common theme throughout the old epics.

Yes, and unlike the NFL, that competition was epic because history hung upon the outcome and even small failure doomed nations. Hector didn't get back into the line-up the next sunday.

 

[med stud]

Yes, and unlike the NFL, that competition was epic because history hung upon the outcome and even small failure doomed nations. Hector didn't get back into the line-up the next sunday.

It was epic because of the scope and the power of those involved. If it weren't for Achilleus, Helen and all the gods, noone would care if a city was taken 2500 years ago. The historical significance was minor, to say the least.

 

[med stud]

Yes, that would be the one where people actually died...

Yes, and that's the reason why it's epic! It's the same reason why elder care homes are epic, and car accidents! Oh, wait...

 

[AllisterH]

Do people REALLY expect combat to take 30 rounds for either side to kill one another at the EPIC tier?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So epic level'll feel like competitive sports with little at stake on failure but personal pride and ambitions?

Strange, that doesn't sound like what mearls wrote.

It sounded more like "You come from paragon, think you're the cream of the crop and have seen everything, and then face opposition nastier then you ever expected to.

But then, I am not a native speaker, so I might have missed the hidden subtext...

 

[malcolm_n]

Do people REALLY expect combat to take 30 rounds for either side to kill one another at the EPIC tier?

Yeah, based on the information so far released by wotc, it'll take participants in combat about 1/2 their level in rounds to kill 1 opponent. So, probably closer to 45 rounds.