MM excerpt: phane

Hi there prototype00! :)

prototype00 said:
That line of reasoning makes a lot of sense, Upper Krust. *I'm also buoyed up by even more evidence that PCs will get 1/2 level to damage*

I don't think PCs will get 1/2 level to damage, though I could be wrong on that. Remember that monsters don't get feats and generally don't get magic items (remember that magic threshold). So PCs will ahve other ways to up their damage.

The 5 + 1/2 level is hidden math built into the monsters level.
 

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Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Strange, that doesn't sound like what mearls wrote.

It sounded more like "You come from paragon, think you're the cream of the crop and have seen everything, and then face opposition nastier then you ever expected to.

But then, I am not a native speaker, so I might have missed the hidden subtext...

No, that's how I read it, too. "Oh, you thought you were big damn heroes? You don't know anything."

I think he was just trying to make a point about professional sports and 4e.
 

Hussar said:
Every time you've brought this up KM, you've used the example of a simple melee attack. Why? Did none of your players play casters? It isn't the grunt types that make evil twins a PITA, it's the high level wizard/cleric.

Fair enough.

"Megan, cast Magic Missile on yourself at -2"

"Derren, use Flame Strike on Eddie at -2"

"Lydia, what are your dailies? ....Right. Tide of Iron Derren at -2"

The information is right there: on the PC's character sheet.

One other issue that would need to be addressed as well is Daily abilities. An Evil Twin creature can blow all his dailies ASAP because he's not expected to survive the fight. But, if the entire party blows their dailies on themselves, they'll die. Quickly.

"Being brought through time deprives creatures of their Daily abilities, but allows their Encounter abilities the feature of Recharge 5,6."
 

Been lurking for a bit - reading up everything on 4e I could - finally got around to registring :)

I just want to make a comment on PCs and damage scaling.

I think a lot of people are missing a couple of points.

They have built in Damage scaling for PCs - just not in the form of 1/2 level

Its through Implements and Attribute boosts

1st level fighter using longsword with 18 Str - Cleave does 1d8 + (4) str damage +4 to adjacent

8th Level Fighter with + 2 Longsword and 20 Str - Cleave now does 1d8 +2 + 5 Damage +5 to adjacent (3 more damage to primary target - 1 more to secondary)

This does not include that he probably has some additional abilities through feats that may up his to Hit/Damage - therefore increasing average damage /round

Also as I am almost certain that [W] will include the implement bonus so that will scale up when using encounter powers
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
Fair enough.

"Megan, cast Magic Missile on yourself at -2"

"Derren, use Flame Strike on Eddie at -2"

"Lydia, what are your dailies? ....Right. Tide of Iron Derren at -2"

The information is right there: on the PC's character sheet.



"Being brought through time deprives creatures of their Daily abilities, but allows their Encounter abilities the feature of Recharge 5,6."

Let's face it though, unless the DM is very prepped for that encounter, that brings the game to a screeching halt.

DM: Ok, a Phane pops out of the woodwork. Everyone hand me your character sheets, I need to write down your hp, ac, and whatnot before I run this encounter.

Players hand over their sheets.

DM: Hang on, just a sec, need to take a look at these abilities. Hey Bob, what does Golden Wyvern Adept do again? (;)) Lydia, these spells you have, I don't know this one. What does it do again? What book's that from? Oh yeah right.

((Fifteen minutes later))

DM: Ok, there, done. Now, let's roll for initiative.

One of the primary goals of 4e seems to be to stop this sort of thing. That creatures shouldn't have abilities that cause the game to come to a screaming halt.

If you want to throw mirror doubles at the party, fine, I'm sure you can do so. But, to put this ability in the standard creature is too hard to use. Never mind WAY too swingy since PC's are supposed to be a fair bit stronger than creatures on a 1:1 basis.
 

Falling Icicle said:
The Rogue ability only increases from 1[W] tp 2[W] at 21st level. That's rather insignificant.

Insignificant if you don't take into account things like ability score increases, feats, items, and other powers that may contribute to that damage total. You're making this assumption based on what can barely be called a skeleton of information, so I think you're getting way ahead of yourself.
 

Let's face it though, unless the DM is very prepped for that encounter, that brings the game to a screeching halt.

I don't know that the DM has to be any more prepared to run the duplicates than he has to be prepared to run the phane itself (or any of the other creatures in the encounter for that matter). The example you give seems to exaggerate the DM's ignorance, and nothing can really save a DM who can't read a character sheet, or, alternately, can't just tell a player to "use your biggest damage effect against yourself."

A DM who doesn't know what the characters are capable of in at least a general sense, or a DM who can't read a character sheet, has...other problems. Problems that will come up in more than just a battle against a monster.

I could just as easily put up some hypothetical DM who doesn't understand what "weakened" or "insubstantial" means. Really, it's no more difficult (and is, in some ways, easier, since the DM absolutely does not have to have encyclopedic knowledge of character abilities, especially since 4e makes the abilities themselves easier to use and remember).

I mean, just a vague memory of what they did in the last combat is enough to run duplicates: "That ability you used to bump that goblin? It's being used on you at -2."

Alternately, from my own experience running "evil twin" combats, I'm a very improv-heavy DM who doesn't enjoy a lot of prep work, and not being "prepared" absolutely did not in any way negatively effect the combat, because the PC's have done all the prep for me. And this was in 3e, with all of its' fiddly wizard powers and whatnot.

If a DM really needs to prep by writing down a PC's "whatnot" (and I don't really know why he would, since it's going to be WRITTEN ON THE CHARACTER SHEETS, just the same way that the phane's is WRITTEN IN THE MONSTER MANUAL), a moment or two before the game starts, when the DM "looks over" the sheets? Really, is that a tremendous problem? You *chose* to run the phane, you knew the phane involves the "evil twin" schtick, and it catches you by surprise?

I'm getting a little tired of these absurd examples of DM ignorance and awkwardness. A DM that out of sorts will have trouble running goblins ("er...what's the crit value on a dagger? What's the rules for a charge? I'm sorry, I need a few minutes to write down all the stats over again, hold on..."), so it's useless to discredit any specific encounter.

One of the primary goals of 4e seems to be to stop this sort of thing. That creatures shouldn't have abilities that cause the game to come to a screaming halt.

A template that consists of (a) all rolls are at -2, (b) no dailies, and (c) recharged per-encounters is not going to bring the game to a screaming halt. The vampire and the lich that we've seen are more complex than that.

If you want to throw mirror doubles at the party, fine, I'm sure you can do so. But, to put this ability in the standard creature is too hard to use. Never mind WAY too swingy since PC's are supposed to be a fair bit stronger than creatures on a 1:1 basis.

Again, this is a false parallel. The ability CAN BE simple, and there's nothing inherent in PCs that makes this or anything like it "swingy" that can't be solved with a Step 4 for the template. It's no more complex (and, in fact, might be less so) than making a vampire orc.

Not to mention that even if the designers were absolutely terrified of some mythologically obtuse boogeyman DM possibly maybe having to consult a character sheet for his monster stats, so much so that they absolutely did not want any sort of "evil twin" mechanic to be viable in 4e, which is to be some sort of divine sanctum for idiot-proof simplicity, it doesn't negate any of the other evocative abilities that the phane is loosing.

So, no, that's not really a defense of our rather bland little buddy, here.

Try again without conjuring up phantoms of DMs who are somehow confused into uselessness upon seeing a PC's evil twin.
 

Um, as someone who HAS attempted to run the 3E phane, I'd like to once again state that it was ALL types of FAIL. Again, please don't just READ the text and think "Oh, the 3E version is much better". I don't know as yet how EPIC battles will run (hell, it might actually turn out to be long boring battles where everyone is just plinking away with at-will abilities as some fear) but I DO KNOW how high level EPIC (not) works in 3E.

The Phane ironically, is the prototypical example of what is wrong with EPIC currently.

As for the actual issue of "duplicates", wouldn't that make the Phane a Solo monster though? I still think this is the big issue with EPIC monsters. Most people envision epic monsters as Solo monsters (the same thing happened with the Pit Fiend). At level 26, two PC should be able to beat down either the Pit Fiend OR this Phane by themselves.

Personally, I've always been somewhat leery about running duplicates of characters especially at mid to high levels in pretty much ALL editions of D&D since while I definitely know the general feats/powers/abilities, my players tend to know the exact method of using them which definitely favours them. For example, that selfsame example of "that ability you used to bump that goblin? Well, it's at -2" kinda proves my point. For example, it could have "size restriction/be ineffective versus certain targets/I'm playing a dwarf with stability".

I think it was easy enough to duplicate the high level 1E/2E fighter since really, all it had at high levels was magical items (which could easily be handwaved away for duplicates) but a 3E mid to high level fighter?

Thus, me running a NPC party of the selfsame 5 PCs versus my 5 friend's PC will NOT result in a 50/50 battle especially at mid to high levels. At low levels, yeah, definitely easy to run, but by level 9? Eh...definitely not. By level 18? Forget about it. My side probably would only have a 20% chance of winning and yet technically, both sides are equal.
 

The Phane ironically, is the prototypical example of what is wrong with EPIC currently.

Again: Yes. I am in no way defending the 3e phane as somehow absolutely superior. Again.

What I'm saying is that the 4e phane looses some of the evocative flavor of its abilities, and I'm not entirely clear on why it would've lost that. The 4e version is probably challenging enough, probably makes for a pitched combat, but it abandons a few very flavorful abilities in favor of rather bland "damage + status ailment" formula.

One example of this was the "time duplicate," which paired the 3e phane explicitly with the awesomeness of fighting your own double.

I don't really believe that the reason is because 4e somehow can't handle "evil twin" style enemies. I have much more faith in the designers than to assume that conflict is out.

As for the actual issue of "duplicates", wouldn't that make the Phane a Solo monster though? I still think this is the big issue with EPIC monsters. Most people envision epic monsters as Solo monsters (the same thing happened with the Pit Fiend). At level 26, two PC should be able to beat down either the Pit Fiend OR this Phane by themselves.

Sure, that's entirely possible. And I guess I can understand on some mercenary level why, if the crew needed to fill a "level 26 elite controller" void, and plucked the phane out of the hat to fill it, they made the choices they did.

More critically, I think that this might be emblematic of a pattern of 4e monsters that, when compared to their earlier version, loose a bit of their evocative narrative punch. I can understand a lot of this is due to simplification, and I can easily tolerate it on enemies that have always been meant to be fairly group-oriented. It might be a bigger problem for monsters like the Phane which was intended to be a high-level solo threat in 3e, and being "demoted" to merely an elite in 4e. I'm willing to bet there was a dearth of existing monsters that would fill high-level roles for underlings, however.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
More critically, I think that this might be emblematic of a pattern of 4e monsters that, when compared to their earlier version, loose a bit of their evocative narrative punch. I can understand a lot of this is due to simplification, and I can easily tolerate it on enemies that have always been meant to be fairly group-oriented. It might be a bigger problem for monsters like the Phane which was intended to be a high-level solo threat in 3e, and being "demoted" to merely an elite in 4e. I'm willing to bet there was a dearth of existing monsters that would fill high-level roles for underlings, however.

There probably is an active trend of trying NOT to simply make everything Solo at high levels (and conversely, trying to find a Solo at low levels - The lowest level Solo that is a non-dragon I can think of might be the Chimera - three heads,plus poisonous tail/snake head scream SOLO)
 

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