MM excerpt: phane

[prototype00]

Yeah, based on the information so far released by wotc, it'll take participants in combat about 1/2 their level in rounds to kill 1 opponent. So, probably closer to 45 rounds.

You're kidding right? The smiley you're using is a casual indication of your chiding jocularity, right? And not a mockery of my twisting guts as I read your ill omened words?

prototype00

 

[Dausuul]

Okay, guys, did you actually look at the war devil's abilities?

Let's say you're facing a standard encounter at level 22--five war devils.

On the first round, each devil will use its trident and its Fiendish Tactics, for a total of five trident attacks and ten claw attacks. At 18 average damage per trident and 11.5 damage per claw, that's 205 damage if everything hits; if we figure half the attacks do in fact hit, that's over a hundred points on the first round. Plus there's ongoing damage from the tridents.

On subsequent rounds, it's not quite as impressive, but they'll still be averaging about 69 points of damage a round when you tot it all up (claws normally, tridents and Fiendish Tactics when the abilities recharge, ongoing trident damage, and a 50% chance to hit). Being intelligent and highly mobile fighters, we can expect them to concentrate that damage pretty heavily. With smart use of Fiendish Tactics and Devilish Transposition, they should be able to focus all of that firepower on a single target--preferably a squishy one.

Plus you've got people being knocked prone, slid around, and marked... all in all, it gets real ugly, real fast.

As for PCs not getting half their level to damage just because the devil doesn't--well, first, the devil is a monster, not a PC. It doesn't play by the same rules. Second, PCs get a damage boost when they hit epic. And third, do you really think the PCs won't have just as many crazy special powers by that level?

 

[Hussar]

Ha!



"Your evil twin attacks you. Eddie, roll to attack yourself at -2."

As a DM, I should have a vague idea of what powers my PC's have anyway, and even if I don't remember specifics, it's right there on their character sheet, and THEY have the specifics, so it's no more effort than telling them what the twin does, and letting them figure out what numbers to figure in. It's less DM prep work than most other monsters.


/snip
So the only question is: why did the Phane loose this ability?

Every time you've brought this up KM, you've used the example of a simple melee attack. Why? Did none of your players play casters? It isn't the grunt types that make evil twins a PITA, it's the high level wizard/cleric.

Now, in 4e terms EVERY PC is going to have about a dozen abilities that can be used, many, if not all of which are better than a simple melee attack.

One other issue that would need to be addressed as well is Daily abilities. An Evil Twin creature can blow all his dailies ASAP because he's not expected to survive the fight. But, if the entire party blows their dailies on themselves, they'll die. Quickly.

Monsters are not supposed to have abilities, as far as I can tell, that are as powerful as Daily's. Giving the bad guy five slightly less powerful PC's all with their dailies and the ability to blow them all in one round is a recipe for TPK.

 

[prototype00]

Okay, guys, did you actually look at the war devil's abilities?

Let's say you're facing a standard encounter at level 22--five war devils.

On the first round, each devil will use its trident and its Fiendish Tactics, for a total of five trident attacks and ten claw attacks. At 18 average damage per trident and 11.5 damage per claw, that's 205 damage if everything hits; if we figure half the attacks do in fact hit, that's over a hundred points on the first round. Plus there's ongoing damage from the tridents.

On subsequent rounds, it's not quite as impressive, but they'll still be averaging about 69 points of damage a round when you tot it all up (claws normally, tridents and Fiendish Tactics when the abilities recharge, ongoing trident damage, and a 50% chance to hit). Being intelligent and highly mobile fighters, we can expect them to concentrate that damage pretty heavily. With smart use of Fiendish Tactics and Devilish Transposition, they should be able to focus all of that firepower on a single target--preferably a squishy one.

Plus you've got people being knocked prone, slid around, and marked... all in all, it gets real ugly, real fast.

As for PCs not getting half their level to damage just because the devil doesn't--well, first, the devil is a monster, not a PC. It doesn't play by the same rules. Second, PCs get a damage boost when they hit epic. And third, do you really think the PCs won't have just as many crazy special powers by that level?

So you're of the opinion that the PCs might get half level to damage? I admit I'm a bit confused as to where you're currently standing on that point.

Good point about the war devils though, mean buggers.

prototype00

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I think I have deciphered the underlying math of damages (about 90% of the tested monsters seem to use this to within 1 point).

Average Damage for any monster will equal:

5 (or d8) + 1/2 Level

Elites x2 damage

Solo Monsters x3 damage?

Minions possibly just deal the 1/2 level bit

Brutes possibly deal double damage on average.

Grick L7 Brute deals 2d6+4 +5 (Avg. 16), Average for a standard L7 might be 8 (5 + 3)

Grick Alpha L9 Brute deals 2d6+6 +5 (Avg. 18). Average for a standard L9 might be 9.

Skeletal Tomb Guardian L10 Elite AND Brute deals 1d8+6 (four attacks) Avg. 10 x 4 = 40. Average for a standard L10 might be 10.

A few monsters throw this 'rule' completely out the window, such as the War Devil.

It should be averaging about 32 damage (4d8+8 +5 ongoing or thereabouts).

The Phane should average approx. 36 damage as well. Instead it averages about half that. It may be some trade off for the insubstatial power, but it still seems very low.

The Pit Fiend does almost double its assumed damage average...

The Pit Fiend should average around 36 damage, and has 1d12+11 +5 fire (Avg. 22) and 1d6+11 +15 poison (Avg. 29) and Aura 15 Fire. So it averages 66.

Assuming the Tarrasque is a Level 30 Solo Brute(?) then it should be averaging around 120+ damage per round (and would have about 1800 hp).

 

[occam]

I think I have deciphered the underlying math of damages (about 90% of the tested monsters seem to use this to within 1 point).

Average Damage for any monster will equal:

5 (or d8) + 1/2 Level

Elites x2 damage

Solo Monsters x3 damage?

Minions possibly just deal the 1/2 level bit

Brutes possibly deal double damage on average.

Thanks, I was about to post the same thing, but you've saved me the trouble of going through all the examples.

It's funny that so many people think WotC has flubbed the math so badly, when we know they've paid closer attention to the math in this game than in any prior edition of D&D. Other than a greater role for... uh, role (brutes and artillery do more, controllers less, etc.), I think Upper_Krust has got it right. And I suspect that this will result in combats that take a similar number of rounds at any level; maybe a little more at higher tiers, but not much.

 

[prototype00]

Hey all!

I think I have deciphered the underlying math of damages (about 90% of the tested monsters seem to use this to within 1 point).

Average Damage for any monster will equal:

5 (or d8) + 1/2 Level

Elites x2 damage

Solo Monsters x3 damage?

Minions possibly just deal the 1/2 level bit

Brutes possibly deal double damage on average.

Grick L7 Brute deals 2d6+4 +5 (Avg. 16), Average for a standard L7 might be 8 (5 + 3)

Grick Alpha L9 Brute deals 2d6+6 +5 (Avg. 18). Average for a standard L9 might be 9.

Skeletal Tomb Guardian L10 Elite AND Brute deals 1d8+6 (four attacks) Avg. 10 x 4 = 40. Average for a standard L10 might be 10.

A few monsters throw this 'rule' completely out the window, such as the War Devil.

It should be averaging about 32 damage (4d8+8 +5 ongoing or thereabouts).

The Phane should average approx. 36 damage as well. Instead it averages about half that. It may be some trade off for the insubstatial power, but it still seems very low.

The Pit Fiend does almost double its assumed damage average...

The Pit Fiend should average around 36 damage, and has 1d12+11 +5 fire (Avg. 22) and 1d6+11 +15 poison (Avg. 29) and Aura 15 Fire. So it averages 66.

Assuming the Tarrasque is a Level 30 Solo Brute(?) then it should be averaging around 120+ damage per round (and would have about 1800 hp).

That line of reasoning makes a lot of sense, Upper Krust. *I'm also buoyed up by even more evidence that PCs will get 1/2 level to damage*

prototype00

 

[Zweischneid]

Okay, guys, did you actually look at the war devil's abilities?

Let's say you're facing a standard encounter at level 22--five war devils.

On the first round, each devil will use its trident and its Fiendish Tactics, for a total of five trident attacks and ten claw attacks. At 18 average damage per trident and 11.5 damage per claw, that's 205 damage if everything hits; if we figure half the attacks do in fact hit, that's over a hundred points on the first round. Plus there's ongoing damage from the tridents.

On subsequent rounds, it's not quite as impressive, but they'll still be averaging about 69 points of damage a round when you tot it all up (claws normally, tridents and Fiendish Tactics when the abilities recharge, ongoing trident damage, and a 50% chance to hit). Being intelligent and highly mobile fighters, we can expect them to concentrate that damage pretty heavily. With smart use of Fiendish Tactics and Devilish Transposition, they should be able to focus all of that firepower on a single target--preferably a squishy one.

Plus you've got people being knocked prone, slid around, and marked... all in all, it gets real ugly, real fast.

As for PCs not getting half their level to damage just because the devil doesn't--well, first, the devil is a monster, not a PC. It doesn't play by the same rules. Second, PCs get a damage boost when they hit epic. And third, do you really think the PCs won't have just as many crazy special powers by that level?

Dunno, only looking at the healing surges of 1st level characters and extrapolating, I'd expect that epic level characters will be able to heal significant amounts of damage each round without much slowing them down, add a few more powerful encounter heals and a few of those "once per day, when you die"; than count in some immunities and resistances (for example to being knocked prone, slid around or marked, which I'd expect most PCs'll be able to avoid at epic) and you're in for one long fight.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Every time you've brought this up KM, you've used the example of a simple melee attack. Why? Did none of your players play casters? It isn't the grunt types that make evil twins a PITA, it's the high level wizard/cleric.

Now, in 4e terms EVERY PC is going to have about a dozen abilities that can be used, many, if not all of which are better than a simple melee attack.

One other issue that would need to be addressed as well is Daily abilities. An Evil Twin creature can blow all his dailies ASAP because he's not expected to survive the fight. But, if the entire party blows their dailies on themselves, they'll die. Quickly.

Monsters are not supposed to have abilities, as far as I can tell, that are as powerful as Daily's. Giving the bad guy five slightly less powerful PC's all with their dailies and the ability to blow them all in one round is a recipe for TPK.

Evil twins may just not use dailies. Instead they have only at will and encounter powers... or even less... (maybe only basic attacks).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy occam!

Thanks, I was about to post the same thing, but you've saved me the trouble of going through all the examples.

Hey...great minds think alike.

It's funny that so many people think WotC has flubbed the math so badly, when we know they've paid closer attention to the math in this game than in any prior edition of D&D.

True, but that doesn't seem to explain the damage output of the War Devil, which seems way underpowered, as well as the Pit Fiend, which actually seems a bit overpowered. I also think the Phane could do with some extra juice (perhaps its Time Duplicate summons a duplicate of itself and gives it a second set of actions while retaining the same hit point total).

Other than a greater role for... uh, role (brutes and artillery do more, controllers less, etc.), I think Upper_Krust has got it right. And I suspect that this will result in combats that take a similar number of rounds at any level; maybe a little more at higher tiers, but not much.

I think thats certainly the goal. I don't think having epic combat take an epic amount of time is a great idea. Its good for stories, but not for actual games.