MM excerpt: phane

[Majoru Oakheart]

I could just as easily put up some hypothetical DM who doesn't understand what "weakened" or "insubstantial" means. Really, it's no more difficult (and is, in some ways, easier, since the DM absolutely does not have to have encyclopedic knowledge of character abilities, especially since 4e makes the abilities themselves easier to use and remember).

The difference is, that as a DM, I will use weakened, insubstantial, marked, push, pull, shift, immobilized, stunned, dazed, and a couple of others on a regular basis. PCs will have abilities that do those things to monster, monsters will have abilities that do them to PCs. I will get to know them quick.

On the other hand, I've read through the book a couple of times now and I don't think I could tell you what the level 15 fighter powers do. And certainly not what all the 1st through 15th fighter powers do. And absolutely not what the 1st-30th fighter powers do. And I definitely couldn't remember the 1st-30th level powers of all 8 classes.

I mean, just a vague memory of what they did in the last combat is enough to run duplicates: "That ability you used to bump that goblin? It's being used on you at -2."

Which is fine...if you want to run the duplicate poorly. It probably would have even worked well in 3rd when monster actions were pretty much always "stand in one spot and full attack".

However, when a copy of a PC has 20 encounter abilities and 2 at will powers, plus possibly 8 magic items which give encounter abilities it becomes very difficult to keep track of it all. Especially when that PC is designed to have his powers work together in a building manner that requires proficiency in using them to do it properly.

Is it better to use the power that shifts 2, attacks once, then shifts 2 and attacks again this round or the one that does 3[W] damage and and then pushes the enemy and stuns them for a round? What about the creature's swift action? Does the PC have any of those? What about move actions? Any immediate actions? Do any of them trigger when the PC gets hit? How about when the PC hits an enemy? What about when the PC is missed?

Are you going to ask the player to see his sheet each time someone attacks the duplicate to check for triggers? Then reread the 20 powers each round to see which one is the best?

Frankly, I'm glad most monsters have 5 powers at MOST. It's not too difficult keeping track of that many powers when you are playing only one character and it's all you play every session for a long time. You get to know all of their powers and which ones are best and can act quickly.

If I'm running 5 monsters, each one should have no more than 1 trigger each, no more than 3 attacks, no more than 1 defense and no more than 1 utility power. If I can look at a monster and say "It's shtick is to teleport with its move action then double attack with its standard and then give a boost to its AC with its swift" then it can be run fast.

I'm getting a little tired of these absurd examples of DM ignorance and awkwardness. A DM that out of sorts will have trouble running goblins ("er...what's the crit value on a dagger? What's the rules for a charge? I'm sorry, I need a few minutes to write down all the stats over again, hold on..."), so it's useless to discredit any specific encounter.

I've had to look up the crit value of a dagger before when I just couldn't remember. I've had to look up the rules for a charge before when something specific about it just wouldn't come to mind and especially when I was first beginning to run the game.

But that's exactly the point. The LESS I have to do this, the faster the game goes. I can tell you that an average 15th level character will have about 2-3 pages worth of text on their powers alone, plus at least another sheet for their defenses, stats, hitpoints and the like, and another full page or 2 on their equipment. I haven't yet stated out a 30th level one, but I can imagine another page or 2 of information.

If you can't imagine how scanning through 6 pages of information on what actions you can take this round might be a lot slower than scanning through the average quarter page stat block of monsters, then I don't know what to say. Especially when "the most damaging attack" is likely a tie between 5 different attacks. Meanwhile, the Phane itself only has 3 attacks total(and one is melee, one is ranged, and one is AOE, so they almost choose themselves). Much more manageable, I'd say.

Again, this is a false parallel. The ability CAN BE simple, and there's nothing inherent in PCs that makes this or anything like it "swingy" that can't be solved with a Step 4 for the template. It's no more complex (and, in fact, might be less so) than making a vampire orc.

A step 4? Not sure what you mean.

Either way, the numbers of PCs sheets and monster's stat blocks are quite a bit different. You wouldn't really want to take a PC and just turn them into a monster.

Not to mention that even if the designers were absolutely terrified of some mythologically obtuse boogeyman DM possibly maybe having to consult a character sheet for his monster stats, so much so that they absolutely did not want any sort of "evil twin" mechanic to be viable in 4e, which is to be some sort of divine sanctum for idiot-proof simplicity, it doesn't negate any of the other evocative abilities that the phane is loosing.

The idea is to make it so the DM can come up with a decision on what to do for each monster in about 30 seconds. Therefore, when he runs 5 monsters, his total turn takes about 2 minutes, 30 seconds. Which is sometimes about what it takes for most players I know to come up with what they are going to do on their turn, because they have so many options to consider and they need to assess the situation tactically, planning which square to move to to get flanking, and so on.

If you give the DM that many options for one of the many monsters in a combat, it will just slow down the combat as he now takes 2 minutes to figure out each monster instead of 30 seconds.

As for the other abilities the phane is losing, I can't speak on those exactly since I never ran one in 3e. I can tell you that levels in 4e are about estimating combat power, not non-combat influence or power. Its no more likely that some epic level creature could destroy the world than a 1st level monster. The main difference tends to be in the amount of damage they dish out and their defenses.

I can't speak directly about the rules, but I fully expect that when I'm level 30 in 4e, I will still be walking to dungeons, using a torch to see, feeling walls for secret doors, afraid to fall into lava, and so on.

The main difference will be my ability to kick some serious butt with my attacks and take a boat load of damage and survive. The monsters of 4e are no different.

 

[LordArchaon]

I posted this on Gleemax, but thought to post it here too... I dunno if this could work (forgotten exact rules for OA... but).

Could a Phane that is really well played by a DM, attack the whole party while not on its turn?

Could the Phane, use its basic attack (Temporal Touch) to OA one PC when he moves. Then shift nearby second PC.

When second PC moves, thanks to either being close enough or PC moving within range, another OA and another shift.

This could potentially repeat till the end of the PCs turns, and you then have got a bunch of injured and slowed PCs on their own turn.

Well, most at-will powers aren't basic attacks: Most are just attacks:

The Temporal Touch attack is shown as being a basic attack:

I dunno. But it says under the Pre-Release:

When an enemy lets its guard down, you can take an opportunity action. You can only take one opportunity action on each combatant's turn (if available). An opportunity action interrupts the action that triggered it.

So since each OA is in a separate combatant's turn... It could work.

Guys... Just listen up to Fallen Seraph...

And I'll tell you more, it is possible, although complicated by the recharge thing, that also the War Devil may use its best attack, the trident, to make OA...

But to stay on topic, the Phane is really meant to do that, I'm convinced: a battle with it is a battle in which the players are destined to fight while slowed, remember that the slow effect in fact is not savable, it lasts 1 round. If it invariably ALWAYS slows EVERY PC thanks to incredible amount of chained opportunity attacks, which are a wonderful example of time-shifting... Well, I won't listen to anyone who'll say that the Phane is weak or not suggestive enough...

 

[D'karr]

Well, I won't listen to anyone who'll say that the Phane is weak or not suggestive enough...

I kind of like it too.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Glad you like the tactic!

In-Game too, that will look like time-control (or atleast knowledge of what the PCs will do in the future). Since it is essentially all the characters begin to move, when out of thin air the Phane is there ready for them and about to strike before they have a chance.

 

[I'm A Banana]

On the other hand, I've read through the book a couple of times now and I don't think I could tell you what the level 15 fighter powers do. And certainly not what all the 1st through 15th fighter powers do. And absolutely not what the 1st-30th fighter powers do. And I definitely couldn't remember the 1st-30th level powers of all 8 classes.

You don't have any idea what those powers will consist of, and neither do I.

What we do have is a vague idea that they will be "simple" and "easy to use."

Which is fine...if you want to run the duplicate poorly

I didn't know anyone was competing in the DMing Olympics where the judges will pooh-pooh any duplicate who isn't constantly using optimal abilities.

However, when a copy of a PC has 20 encounter abilities and 2 at will powers, plus possibly 8 magic items which give encounter abilities it becomes very difficult to keep track of it all.

The magic items don't enter into it at all because monsters don't "get" magic items. The number of abilities is significantly less than 20 (remember the powers/level chart?). You're spouting off wild inaccuracies that don't defend your position at all.

Is it better to use the power that shifts 2, attacks once, then shifts 2 and attacks again this round or the one that does 3[W] damage and and then pushes the enemy and stuns them for a round? What about the creature's swift action? Does the PC have any of those? What about move actions? Any immediate actions? Do any of them trigger when the PC gets hit? How about when the PC hits an enemy? What about when the PC is missed?

4e is promising easy abilities. If abilities are easy, they'll be easy for the DM and the player. Again, a wild inaccuracy.

But that's exactly the point. The LESS I have to do this, the faster the game goes. I can tell you that an average 15th level character will have about 2-3 pages worth of text on their powers alone, plus at least another sheet for their defenses, stats, hitpoints and the like, and another full page or 2 on their equipment. I haven't yet stated out a 30th level one, but I can imagine another page or 2 of information.

And you really don't have to look at any of them. At all. Really. Honest and true. If you have a vague notion of what the PC can do, and you ask them what their various bonuses/abilities are, or, at most, glance at the character sheet to preserve the surprise, you'll be golden.

I'm 90% sure that 4e will be able to have "evil twin" style combats, so unless you've got something that honestly admits that "evil twins" are waaaaaay too much for something as simplistic and basic as 4e to handle, you're really just shooting smoke up my bum. And if you DO have something from 4e that admits that, I will be forced to laugh said bum right off at the astonishing ignorance of the designers.

Or, you can just give up the ghost and tell me some other reason why they might not have included evil twin powers. For instance, Allister's point about needing Elite LV 26 controllers, and thus not being able to make the Phane a solo monster like the original 3e was intended to be, and thus a deliberate attempt to reduce the creature's footprint is a very good point, and one that I can certainly see the logic of.

But saying "4e will be confused by evil twins!" sorely underestimates the team that's working on 4e, I think.

Either way, the numbers of PCs sheets and monster's stat blocks are quite a bit different. You wouldn't really want to take a PC and just turn them into a monster.

Absolutes are rarely true, and competent designers will definitely anticipate this.

If you give the DM that many options for one of the many monsters in a combat, it will just slow down the combat as he now takes 2 minutes to figure out each monster instead of 30 seconds.

I really think there is a world of difference between the options of a gang of kobold minions and an ancient black great wyrm dragon.

Assuming that all monster abilities will be idiot-simple is a very risky assumption to make.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I really have to bow out of this conversation. Just because at this point, I can't say much without breaking my NDA. But I know what I'm talking about. I was one of the 4e DMs at D&D XP. I am in the midst of brainstorming adventures for Living Forgotten Realms.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I know what I'm talking about.

If 4e claims that it's too dumb to handle "evil twin" plots, it's a very damning failure on the part of the designers.

But if the designers are pretty good at what they do, 4e will be smart enough to handle "evil twin" plots.

I've got some faith in the team.

If you think your sneak-peak somehow reveals colossal failure of the game to that degree, I will confess that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

And, for at least the third time, "4e is too dumb to handle evil twins" still doesn't explain the OTHER abilities that the phane looses.

Allister's point addresses that, however.

 

[Spatula]

I think the bit about needing non-solo epic-tier beasties is probably the most relevant. The idea of "epic" play seems to lend itself to dealing with creatures that can wipe out nations by themselves, which makes it hard to have "normal" encounters against level-appropriate foes. I am curious if there's any epic-level minions, and if so what they look like...

A time-controlling monster that fills out the rest of the encounter with PC doubles would be pretty awesome, though:

Level 26 Encounter (XP 46,000)

* 1 phane (level 26 elite controller)
* 4 PC time-duplicates (level 26 various)

People seem to keep missing KM's point that the players have already done all the relevant record-keeping regarding their character. "What's your best attack?" "Roll to use it against Fred, please, at -2 to hit." That's trivially easy to run. Also the idea that the DM doesn't have some idea of what the players can do, when you see them do it every session is silly. If you just started the campaign at 26th level, sure. That's not the typical situation though, and if that was the case... pick a different encounter.

And even aside from that, you don't need an exact copy of the PC's abilities. Pick a similar monster, change its appearance and the description of its abilities, and presto, instant twin. This is the flexibility that 4e promises DMs. It's rather odd seeing ardently pro-4e people here saying, "No, 4e can't do that."

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

And even aside from that, you don't need an exact copy of the PC's abilities. Pick a similar monster, change its appearance and the description of its abilities, and presto, instant twin. This is the flexibility that 4e promises DMs. It's rather odd seeing ardently pro-4e people here saying, "No, 4e can't do that."

I'm not saying it can't do that. I'm saying that you likely won't see published monsters that rely on that as mechanics. Sure, it's really easy to say "give me your character sheets, I'm now using copies of you as characters." It just is more complicated to run a PC, even a first level one than it is to run a monster. And that is on purpose.

Take for example monster stats everyone has seen so I can talk about them, the Black Dragon who is 4th level.

He has darkness, breath weapon, bite, claw, double claw, fear, and bloodied breath.

The premade PCs that have been released have Basic Melee, Basic Ranged, 2 at will powers, 2 encounter powers, and a daily power. Plus 1 or 2 class abilities and possibly a racial power and the use of 1 or 2 magic item powers. And all of that is just at first level.

Keep in mind, that the dragon is a solo monster and has many more abilities than the average creature because it needs to be more interesting since it is the only monster in the encounter.

For instance, the Halfling Paladin can:
-attack with +6 to hit AC and do 1d6+3 and gain 3 temporary hitpoints
-attack with +5 to hit AC for 1d6+2 damage(or 1d6+5 against a marked target)
-mark a target as a minor action
-heal someone within melee range as a minor action 3 times per day
-give an ally an immediate saving throw with +3 as a minor action OR give himself +2 damage this round as a minor action but not both during the same combat
-reroll an attack roll against him an an immediate action
-attack with +6 to hit AC for 2d6+3 and give an ally +3 to their ac for one round (once per encounter)
-attack with +3 vs Will for 3d8+3 (half damage on a miss) and the enemy takes 1d8 damage on any round he makes an attack(half if the original attack missed) (only once per day)
-attack as a basic attack with +5 to hit AC for 1d6+2 with his shortsword
-attack as a basic ranged attack with +3 to hit AC for 1d6+2 with his throwing hammer which has a range of 10/20.

Also, keep in mind that he has a +5 bonus to save against fear and +2 to his AC against OAs and +2 to his AC if he is adjacent to two larger enemies.

Which one of the above powers is his "best"? Is it better to mark someone this round or give the bonus save to an ally? What about healing? Is it better to gain temporary hitpoints and do less damage or more damage without the hitpoints? Is it best to use the encounter ability now or will an ally need the bonus to AC more next round when they might be hit by more enemies?

Compare that to the Skeleton Warrior. It has 2 powers: Attack(and mark the enemy), and get pluses to hit and damage on OAs. You know what it is going to do every round: attack enemies and try to position itself so that PCs have to provoke OAs to move past it to get at its allies.

That's the design philosophy of 4e: make the monster so simple that even if you open the book to the page with the monster on it for the first time 30 seconds before you roll for init you'll be able to understand how to run it. The same can't be said for the above paladin.

I'm also saying that there is a better way, mechanically, to design a "mirror universe" PC in 4e. Although I can't say how it works and it may not satisfy some people.

 

[AllisterH]

I wonder if we've been going about this "Time Duplicate" scenario wrong.

Looking at the "Modifying monsters" concept, they talked about a class template. Designers have said that there's nothing preventing a DM from taking the long route and simply adding class levels to a monster, but maybe the class template is better?

The class template seems to indicate that you take the major parts of the class and apply it to the monster and thus you get a quick and dirty "classed NPC", which is all that you need I imagine.

So here's what I'm thinking.

(Use the race entry in the MM + apply the class template = Time Duplicate in past). Anyone see anything wrong with my reasoning?

As for the PHANE itself, I don't think it necessarily should be a Solo Monster otherwise, looking at the epic monsters, EVERYTHING should be a Solo Monster which ironically turns 4E defiitely into a WoW game at high levels