MM II Identity Parade

[Rechan]

Too generic, really. Why is it that I can have over 500 variations on combat, but only 12 variations when not killing things?

Because combat sells?

Seriously. Everybody uses combat, but not everybody uses lots of non-combat stuff. So it's just a pragmatic move to make what is going to sell more.

Compare for instance the amount of 3rd party monster books and their sales, vs. the amount of 3rd party non-combat books and their sales.

 

[Nifft]

Too generic, really. Why is it that I can have over 500 variations on combat, but only 12 variations when not killing things?

Because every happy family is alike, while every unhappy family... well, it looks like I'm gonna need to know Mom's AC.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RefinedBean]

Too generic, really. Why is it that I can have over 500 variations on combat, but only 12 variations when not killing things?

I'd say because situations that don't involve killing things are so incredibly diverse and up to the DM's imagination and storytelling, that the less guidelines or rules given, the better. Combat, on the other hand, needs rules, and is also a reason that many, MANY people play D&D in the first place.

This is, of course, all a matter of preference and opinion.

Anyway, no more threadjack, apologies all around. I'm personally looking forward to seeing more oozes and slimes. Can never get enough of those.

Also, Myconids!

 

[Quickleaf]

Aaron!

You and me find a publisher, and we can write this thing.

I'd love to add a "big book of encounters" to 4e. There's plenty of open design space for it.

Heck yeah! Only if Shemeska will join us though.

I sure would . It's something that's been largely lacking for more than an edition now. The pendulum swung towards more crunch at the expense of in-depth flavor in 3e, and with 4e it swung even further in that direction (to an absurd degree IMO).

I want monsters that inspire me to use them, that give me ideas, and give new players and new DMs motivation and details to spur their imagination. I don't want a book of dry stats that gives me little to no reason to bother looking at it twice.

Totally agree with you. I used 2e's habitat/ecology as an example of the superfluous kind of information that rarely saw play.

I'd like to see a focus on playability in the monster write-ups, allowing the type of information to change depending on the monster. In my mind this includes things like:
* culture
* tips for role-playing the monster in social situations
* 3 sample origins of the monster
* 3 adventure hooks for the monster
* suggested lairs/traps/hazards/terrain suitable to the monster

 

[I'm A Banana]

Seriously. Everybody uses combat, but not everybody uses lots of non-combat stuff. So it's just a pragmatic move to make what is going to sell more.

Compare for instance the amount of 3rd party monster books and their sales, vs. the amount of 3rd party non-combat books and their sales.

I think there's a deep horse-and-cart problem here. D&D players have long had to figure out how to make the cart go before the horse that they haven't really realized that you can do it the other way around, too.

1e left this sort of stuff totally open-ended. All 2e had was NonWeapon Proficiencies. All 3e had was a skill system that had varying significance. 4e has less than even 2e, really.

There's NEVER been a good mechanical system for handling challenges -- real, threatening, life-endangering, drama-making, interesting, climax-having, problem-solving non-combat challenges -- in D&D. 4e perhaps doesn't have the weight of making one, but they do have the weight of using what they do have, especially in the face of fairly keen criticism (even the fanboys confess that monsters don't have much meat on their mechanical bones), and especially considering its professed cinematic style (I've never seen a movie interested in five-foot increments or diagonal measurement or cubes instead of spheres). The complaints against a lack of monster-meat have been pretty consistent, and they can do a lot to fix it.

I don't even necessarily need a "lot" of non-combat things (this is 4e, after all, not 2e. ). Just, you know, ways to challenge the party that don't involve hitting their AC's for certain creatures where it might be likely that that's the sort of encounter I'll run. A way to have a sphinx tell a riddle (and for it not to be like every other riddle the party has been told) isn't, I think, asking for the world.

Because every happy family is alike, while every unhappy family... well, it looks like I'm gonna need to know Mom's AC.

Not every conflict is about beating things up. All other editions of the game fully realized this, from 1e's focus on survival to 2e's narrative shift, to 3e's magical arms-race of detection, landscaping, and manueverability, and even to 4e's underwhelming skill challenges and 4e's better things like rituals and traps and hazards and diseases.

Use what you've got. When I pop open the Monster Manual, I want more than just a list of things to poke with swords. I want an array of difficult challenges for my PC's to overcome. Absolutely including combat, and lots of it, but also not entirely defined by combat.

I'd say because situations that don't involve killing things are so incredibly diverse and up to the DM's imagination and storytelling, that the less guidelines or rules given, the better. Combat, on the other hand, needs rules, and is also a reason that many, MANY people play D&D in the first place.

Ech. Any book on writing a screenplay or a short story would go a long way to disagreeing with you. The basic "three-act" story structure is present in everything from a Wu-Tang Clan song through an ancient Greek play up to 90% of romantic relationships.

Conflict of any sort only has two outcomes: One side wins, or the other side wins.

Also, Myconids!

I am kind of pumped about myconids, and I kind of want to play one.

Heck yeah! Only if Shemeska will join us though.
...
I'd like to see a focus on playability in the monster write-ups, allowing the type of information to change depending on the monster. In my mind this includes things like:
* culture
* tips for role-playing the monster in social situations
* 3 sample origins of the monster
* 3 adventure hooks for the monster
* suggested lairs/traps/hazards/terrain suitable to the monster

I'd narrow it down even further to just "encounters with the creature." Sometimes you'll fight it, sometimes you'll challenge it to a spirited debate, sometimes you'll just try to stay out of its way while it rampages across Tokyo.

But let's take this idea up elsewhere. I just want to make sure that I'm clear when I say that I hope the Monster Manual 2 isn't just a list of things and their stats, and that if it is, I won't have a lot of use for it, just like I don't have a lot of use for the first MM.

 

[Nifft]

When I pop open the Monster Manual, I want more than just a list of things to poke with swords. I want an array of difficult challenges for my PC's to overcome. Absolutely including combat, and lots of it, but also not entirely defined by combat.

See, when I pop open the Monster Manual, what I want are monsters.

Those other things sound very nice, but shouldn't they get their own book?

I mean really, if you brought home Grim's Traps and it was full of monsters, would you think it a good product?

Cheers, -- N

 

[I'm A Banana]

See, when I pop open the Monster Manual, what I want are monsters.

Those other things sound very nice, but shouldn't they get their own book?

I mean really, if you brought home Grim's Traps and it was full of monsters, would you think it a good product

Those things are linked to monsters, though.

When I meet a sphinx, I get a riddle. The riddle mechanics/skill challenge/minigame/ritual should be there, with the sphinx.

These types of things have been in MM's before, too. Celestials and "gotcha" monsters (aka traps with legs) and low-level humanoids of varying alignments and things like, say, the afanc, which is really an environmental challenge (whirlpool) with a monster attached to it. Scylla and Charibdis, Thunderbirds and Mad Kings, real Angels, trickster-fey, witches and shapeshifters, kelpies and sirens....these things have their place in MM's throughout all four editions, even if the main challenge in an encounter with one isn't how quickly you can fill it full of arrow-holes.

If an encounter with a monster is going to involve more than just combat -- if I'm going to need to free a neogi's slaves before taking down the slave ring -- the mechanics for dealing with that should be right there, with the monster.

If an encounter with a monster isn't going to be more than just combat, I don't have much of a use for that monster.

Monsters -- at least the good ones -- are more than just things to poke with swords, and the MM should reflect that.

 

[avin]

I would like to subscribe for deep ecology monsters in MMs.

It's my impression that MM4E pleases the kind of DMs who just put monsters by the sake of their strategies. A beholder in a door, a troll in the next, a dragon in another. Not saying this is wrong, it's just a playstlye that I don't really like.

"Monsters -- at least the good ones -- are more than just things to poke with swords, and the MM should reflect that."

Amen.

 

[avin]

See, when I pop open the Monster Manual, what I want are monsters.

See, when I pop open the Monster Manual I want more than just stat blocks with no explanation, no soul, no reason to exist beyond "they are there for PCs to kill".

I want deep fluff. Variations, ideas, inspiration.

Are you wrong? Nah.
Am I wrong? Not really.

We just want different things

 

[The_Fan]

The thing is, the Sphynx's riddle IS there, which is why that strikes me as a particularly poor example

Sphinx’s Challenge
The sphinx poses a challenge out of combat (see sidebar). If the challenged creatures refuse to answer or fail to answer correctly, the sphinx gains the following benefits until the end of the encounter: +1 action point, an extra use of second wind, a +2 bonus to attack rolls, and a +2 bonus to all defenses.

And the sidebar:

Before placing a sphinx in your adventure, consider devising a suitable challenge for the sphinx to offer adventurers. Simple challenges are passwords or holy verses—the adventurers know them, or they don’t. Riddles are the classic test, of course; you can create a riddle or use a classic if you like (try looking for riddles online). Theological or philosophical arguments work well as interaction encounters using Arcana, History, or Religion as the key skills.