MM4 Table of Contents up

[Razz]

Gosh, why would he be insulted by that?

Heaven forfend people just disagree with you. God forbid that WotC produce tools for DMs who don't have much free time, haven't kept notes between campaigns, have never before needed "creature X with class levels," or--gasp!--are new to DMing!

Damn WotC for not producing books for you and Razz specifically, and ignoring every other possible segment of their market. Good thing you've shown them the error of their ways through reasoned discourse, friendly interaction, and logically constructed arguments.

We have NPC generators online, people can use computers or whatever, you can even have your friends help you write up some NPC stats. I really don't agree with destroying quality&quantity in D&D books lately for the sake of more "convenience." If people don't know by now that D&D takes, I dunno, TIME then maybe they jumped into the wrong game.

There're many ways to reduce time, but developing more and more D&D books that continue to "save time for you" not only stifles creativity but it also greatly diminishes quality and quantity. Hence, the MMIV. It's obvious fact it has the lowest count of monsters of all monster books and completely strays from its traditional purpose. I don't think putting in "Kobold (insert random adjective here)" makes for a truly wonderful and inspiring monster book.

And exactly how much time are people saving? Some can develop an adventure in an hour or 2, are books trying to help squeeze an extra 10 or 20 minutes of prep time now? I could've swore that was what the DMG2 was for, I recently read the section on how to prep in 1, 2, 3, or 4 hours. That wasn't enough was it, though? Instead, WotC has to do all the work for the person. I haven't heard of anyone I know personally that's played or plays D&D say they have no time, I've met many that actually MADE time for themselves, either a set date once or twice weekly or switching their work schedules around.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I haven't heard of anyone I know personally that's played or plays D&D say they have no time, I've met many that actually MADE time for themselves, either a set date once or twice weekly or switching their work schedules around.

Perhaps you could break down their ages, marital status, how many children they have, and what their jobs are for us.

 

[Razz]

Perhaps you could break down their ages, marital status, how many children they have, and what their jobs are for us.

Most of them have GFs, are married, or even have kids. I recently met a couple with three kids, and they get together with two of their friends ALL the time it seems.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Most of them have GFs, are married, or even have kids. I recently met a couple with three kids, and they get together with two of their friends ALL the time it seems.

What are their ages?

By the way, the point isn't that people are saying they don't want to do any prep work whatsoever. I know that I don't mind it. I would just rather spend the time I have working on the background and setting material for my campaigns and adventures, what I consider the creative aspect of it all, than spend it working on statblocks.

 

[Razz]

I -am- a contributing author to the MM IV, and I haven't seen anything but the raw files yet, so I actually can't say if I'm going to like the book or not. On the other hand, I'll get three free copies, so it's not like I have to worry about deciding if I want to buy it. And I hope most of you (that play D&D) are smart enough not to make such a decision until you see a copy and flip through it. Because doing anything else is either stupidity, or mean-spiritedness. Period. Form all the early opinions you want, but the final decision should wait until you SEE THE BOOK.

I am sorry, but, that seems to be the strangest thing I have been hearing people say numerously on this thread.

"Wait till you see the book."

And my response is, we have seen all there is to see. We've seen several of the monsters in previews, we know how the monster write-ups will look thanks to showing us the Wizened Elder, and the Table of Contents SAYS IT ALL, pretty much. Exactly what else are we supposed to be looking at? The neat little "For Players" area of the book? I already think that's a fine idea. Is there something special about the "Drow Treeswinger" or whatever we won't know until the book comes out?

Folks, I really would like to hear what more we're supposed to see from MM4? We've seen previews and the ToC, I don't believe there's anything much else to point out.

 

[Razz]

What are their ages?

By the way, the point isn't that people are saying they don't want to do any prep work whatsoever. I know that I don't mind it. I would just rather spend the time I have working on the background and setting material for my campaigns and adventures, what I consider the creative aspect of it all, than spend it working on statblocks.

Late 20s.

Yes, so you're saying WotC should continue to destroy their quality and quantity for the sake of the books being more and more convenient? Should continue to destroy tradition or themes in order to "test the waters" I apparently seen mmearls state recently. I don't mind them testing new things, but it seems to be a trend with them lately that's been degrading the material significantly. I'd feel a lot better if they came out and said "2006 is the year we're just trying a bunch of new things, you'll see the results of it in 2007 products." Least be honest. But then again, as a rather intelligent friend of mine put it, these spontaneous major changes to the books and game are either a set up for 4E or just an obvious scheme to make more $$$ over quality.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Late 20s.

So I would assume you're in your 20s also.

Yes, so you're saying WotC should continue to destroy their quality and quantity for the sake of the books being more and more convenient?

I have no idea what you mean by "quality and quantity." Something that's more convenient is what I'd consider quality.

Should continue to destroy tradition or themes in order to "test the waters" I apparently seen mmearls state recently. I don't mind them testing new things, but it seems to be a trend with them lately that's been degrading the material significantly.

Degrading it from what? What specifically is being degraded?

I'd feel a lot better if they came out and said "2006 is the year we're just trying a bunch of new things, you'll see the results of it in 2007 products." Least be honest. But then again, as a rather intelligent friend of mine put it, these spontaneous major changes to the books and game are either a set up for 4E or just an obvious scheme to make more $$$ over quality.

"Quality" is a subjective term, you realize. Just because you don't feel something is "quality" doesn't mean someone else won't feel the opposite.

Besides all this, if you're interested in doing so much from scratch, and want books to be toolboxes (the kinds of books I prefer, by the way), then what more do you need? Between the core and Unearthed Arcana, all the tools are there to customize the game to your taste. You really don't need anything else.

 

[Razz]

So I would assume you're in your 20s also.

Early 20s, started D&D in 8th grade, with AD&D 2E and moved on to 3E/3.5E (at a painstaking loss of $2500+ from 2E books, though the FR stuff is useful still).

I have no idea what you mean by "quality and quantity." Something that's more convenient is what I'd consider quality.

The PrC format, for example. Designed to help the uninspired, confused, or the skeptical. Takes up quite a number of pages. Loss of more material is a result. Also, the quality of the PrC has been lost, now, thanks to it stifling creativity and I have noticed more and more disagree with the new format. Even those that like it believe it's a little too excessive. That's just one example. Sticking adventures in a book that has nothing to do with what the book is covering, loss of room for something used only once. Why not post them on the web as an WE?

Degrading it from what? What specifically is being degraded?

Mainly the amount of content within the books lately. And the fact that every book is becoming a "We've done the work for you" instead of "Here're the tools, a couple of examples, now go and make your game YOUR game."

"Quality" is a subjective term, you realize. Just because you don't feel something is "quality" doesn't mean someone else won't feel the opposite.

I have realized that, also. For every naysayer for the MM4, for example, there're those who absolutely love it. I still would like to voice out my disagreement with the new format, but then again my voice has no meaning if sales show otherwise.

Besides all this, if you're interested in doing so much from scratch, and want books to be toolboxes (the kinds of books I prefer, by the way), then what more do you need? Between the core and Unearthed Arcana, all the tools are there to customize the game to your taste. You really don't need anything else.

Unearthed Arcana is for game mechanics. What I mean by tools are new spells, PrC, feats, monsters, new systems (that will be supported, btw). I mention mostly crunch material, but I agree with putting the fluff in side by side with it. I believe the greatest books were Player's Handbook 2, Monster Manual 3, Races of Stone, and Draconomicon, for example. The you have your mostly fluff books like Power of Faerun, that was great too. When WotC sets themselves on such a pedestal with such books, then when I see crappy books (made in comparison to those mentioned above, for example) it makes at least someone like me wonder "Why'd they stray from a good thing?" or "Didn't they know any better?"

I think what it is, they go too far with their "new toys". With the MM4, for example, most of the book is classed monsters from MM3.5 (and for others, it was already minis). Why use the Monster Manual 4 for this? It should've been a separate book or they should've gone in slowly with the new idea. But I assume they were looking for a strong reaction so they plugged half the book with it.

As for "quantity", well, like I have mentioned before. Less monsters now, it has a lower count than even Monsters of Faerun. It's a Monster Manual that should give people more new monsters (and more is better, because they can cover all creature types at least), it's always been that way. I feel like if I get MM4, I am not getting what I was expecting to get when purchasing a Monster Manual, a book on new monsters, and the price remains the same. An Enemies&Allies II would've been better for their classed monsters type book.

 

[BronzeGolem]

I have no idea what you mean by "quality and quantity." Something that's more convenient is what I'd consider quality.

Degrading it from what? What specifically is being degraded?

"Quality" is a subjective term, you realize. Just because you don't feel something is "quality" doesn't mean someone else won't feel the opposite.

These are all sort of the same point, so I'll explain what I mean by "quality" as far as a Monster Manual is concerned. Quality means, to me and in no particular order, that:

1) There are a lot of monsters.
2) The monsters provided are unique, and are creatures that I couldn't just think of myself.
3) The presentation is good in terms of the formatting.
4) The stat blocks aren't error-laden.

I'll look at MMIV once it comes out, but this is the way things look from the information I've seen so far:

1) MMIV has fewer new monsters than previous Monster Manuals or the Fiend Folio.
2) What monsters it does have...a significant number of them are class-levelled basic creatures, or variations on a theme.
3) It's in the new format, which also has a lot to do with why there are fewer monsters-because it takes up a lot more space.
4) I can't comment on since like I've said before, I haven't seen it yet.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

I feel like if I get MM4, I am not getting what I was expecting to get when purchasing a Monster Manual, a book on new monsters, and the price remains the same. An Enemies&Allies II would've been better for their classed monsters type book.

You do realize there is no mythic guarantee to have a MM book come out every few years, right? That if the book had been called Enemies & Allies II, it would still be the same freaking book with the same cost? And then, of course, people would be complaining that it had too many new monsters that belonged in an MM product.

As far as I can tell, WotC didn't name the book in a way you like. Sorry. I trust you'll get over it.