Mmmm...Libris Mortis.

[Psion]

Sure I can. A cone of cold cast by a 15th-level Mystic Theurge or True Necromancer is weaker than a cone of cold cast by a straight wizard of the same level, because the MT/TN's caster level for wizard spells is lower.

This is true, but I thought you were saying the spell level wasn't being taken into account.

sigh

Balance, frankly, is a common myth that we all (or most of us, anyway) agree to subscribe to. My belief is that, in most campaigns, the MT and TN are both balanced

That's pretty hard to back up without some survey on what "most campaigns" are like. But I beleive the flexibility afforded in having so many different spells is significant in a wide variety of campaigns. But when it comes down to it, all we can ultimately say a given class is balanced for is our own games.

As far as the "Swiss army knife" aspect, you're right--but again, that brings us back to versatility vs. power. Frankly, the bard is one of the single-most versatile core classes, and is in fact touted as a good fifth party member because he can take on the rolls of any of the main four, but not as well.

I beleive the bard's versatility is not so great as you think. He can fight decently, but his magic is fairly narrow in scope.

 

[Psion]

Read my above post. They are NOT weighted for time neccessary to cast.

Which is all well and good, but really does not bear on what I was actually saying. To wit, I am not saying the sheer weight of the number of spells the MT can cast in a day is the telling factor in the power of the MT -- which your argument bears on. My contention is that having the right tool to deal with any given job is where the big advantage of the MT lies, and the fact that you won't be using all your spells every day has little impact on that.

 

[jasamcarl]

Which is all well and good, but really does not bear on what I was actually saying. To wit, I am not saying the sheer weight of the number of spells the MT can cast in a day is the telling factor in the power of the MT -- which your argument bears on. My contention is that having the right tool to deal with any given job is where the big advantage of the MT lies, and the fact that you won't be using all your spells every day has little impact on that.

I would have to know what you mean by versatility. If you are referring to combat contingencies and traps and the like, i.e. those encounters that do not impose an arbitrary amount of damage or dish out an arbitrary amount of xp, then I would say that there is very little difference in that type of utility between a single and prc multiclass. Because even the former has a huge excess of low level spell slots, and the low levels is where that type of utility tends to be found.

If you are referring to story reward type stuff, then it is possible for a dm to skew heavily in favor of the MT. But that is a passive benefit.

But atleast you are not talking about straight combat balance. I knew those fears were overblown the first time the MT preview was posted and the knee jerking began...ah memories.

 

[Scribble]

Someone in my group got this book yesterday. At first glance through I wasn't that impressed.

I guess it's just my own personal opinion, but I'm tired of the endless repetition of more PRCs, Feats, and Spells... They're usefull, but I wish they'd come out with books that detail something OTHER then that. Like new optional rules and such.

But that's just me.

Another member of our group when glancing through the book noticed there was a power that allowed bardic music to effect undead, and then immediatly said, "Haha cool.. like Thriller..."

Now that, is a power worth having!

 

[HellHound]

re: Dirgesinger Wonder what Hellhound thinks of that, given there is a class in LE1/compiled that is basically that concept...

Just because I was the first out of the block with that one.

It is such an obvious concept, that I'm surprised there are so few of these prestige classes floating around, honestly.

And look out, mine gets a re-write soon as we bring them all to 3.5

 

[seankreynolds]

Quite a bit, actually. There are loads of feats and stuff for incorporeals, like a feat that lets them pick stuff up (which is problematic...so, I have a Str of -, how can I pick anything up?), a weapon enhancement that allows you to sneak attack and crit incorporeal undead as well as being ghost touch, the aforementioned incorporeal class, etc. It's not the primary focus, but incoporeality is very present.

I'm hoping they errata the boldfaced part, as it makes no sense (are you creating vital organs in the incorporeal creature so you can crit it? if so, can your buddies sneak attack and crit the undead, too? or are they only there the instant you make your attack? if so, can your buddies ready an action to attack those organs when you create them?). This is one of the problem things in the book that I caught and they were trying to fix it in typesetting, and whatever they couldn't fix was going to be erratad.

 

[Sketchpad]

I got my copy of the LM on Friday and spent most of my free time this weekend reading it Personally, I love the book ... the new creatures are a good addition and with the monster classes, new feats, spells and Prestige Classes, there are many new options for players and NPCs alike. The gem that I found in the book are the options for traditional undead in the back of the book. You want faster zombies (like those in the new Dawn of the Dead or 28 Days Later)? There are options for them in the bcak of the book, as well as a horde of creatures statted out with both the skeleton and zombie template ... good stuff! My only problem with the book was the size ... I'd say it falls in around half the size of the Draconomicon, which is too bad ... I would've liked to see some additional information on the actual Libris Mortis (as discussed in the very beginning of the book), as well as some new races perhaps? There could easily be more info in the book IMHO, but what's there is well worth the read

 

[Nightfall]

Just curious then Shawn, are you gonna review Liber Mortis then?

*thinks maybe the only way he'll get more Orcus info is getting it himself. *

Anyway...

 

[Scribble]

You want faster zombies (like those in the new Dawn of the Dead or 28 Days Later)? There are options for them in the bcak of the book, as well as a horde of creatures statted out with both the skeleton and zombie template ...

What if I want the ones from Shawn of The Dead?

 

[teitan]

Alignment: Any non-good
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks
Feats: Spell Focus: Necromancy
Spells: Able to cast Summon Undead II as a Divine Spell, and Command Undead as an Arcane Spell Note: Summon Undead II is a new 2nd lvl spell in Libris Mortis, Command Undead is a 2nd lvl spell in PHB)
Special: Able to rebuke undead
Special: Access to the Death Domain

Altogether, these can be met after 6 levels, 3 as a Wizard/Sorcerer, 3 as a Cleric, if you planned on it from the start. If not, it could take several additional levels, though that would mean missing out on the highest levels of TrNec, including some of their most potent special abilities.

Since you already have more Wizard levels than you need, you'll now need to become a cleric with the Death Domain for 3 levels, and then enter TrNec at 8th lvl.

This would be very difficult to accomplish in my games as I control spell access outside the PHB which in my campaign balances it even more. Looks like a good Prestige Class....

Jason