Modifying Cleric to be more like Wizard

[Einlanzer0]

Sure. Bluntness is always forgiven.

Because, to be blunt about it, most of the people that come into this forum are terrible rule-smiths with ill-thought out ideas, and in particular they have a habit of thinking that some issue or the other is relatively simple and obvious and are completely mystified why no one has done this thing that seem completely simple and obvious to them, when in fact the problem is that it is not simple or obvious at all.

There's no mystification. House ruling is idiosyncratic. Most people don't care about it at all, and those that do are only likely to care about certain very specific things. However, this is a forum specifically for house ruling for people who like concepts not handled within the game. This is a weak argument.

By all means, draft your fantasy heartbreaker if that is what you want to do. I suggest going all out with wound levels instead of hit points, extensive critical hit tables, skill based instead of classless, a bunch of extra ability scores, mixing up what the ability scores are for, called shots, armor as DR, extensive critical hit tables, spell points instead of spell slots, and unified spellcasting because clerics are stupid. Oh, and no elves. Just get it all out of your system at once.

Nice strawman. If you're finished, we can resume our grown-up conversation. Increasing grit, verisimilitude, or simulationism is not a binary choice. There are varying ways to do it, and they don't all have to be punishingly difficult to craft or implement. WotC has proposed several ideas themselves for people who like the simulation aspects of D&D. This is your tendency toward narcissism-laced pedantry showing again. The way this typically works is that you start with a concept you like, which is rarely perfect right out of the gate, then iterate on it until it works reasonably well. Balance isn't 100% perfect and never will be, so there's no point becoming obsessively preoccupied with it. It just has to be decent.

Seriously, do you know how many times I've listened to some variation on, "This has always been a slight pet peeve of mind about D&D - that the standard cleric is an armor clad warpriest rather than the more common and anachronistically appropriate scholarly theologian."? So I tried to get you to question your assumptions, and maybe think of "other media" as something other than Warcraft and other things directly inspired by D&D in the first place.

To be blunt, you are a 94 post noob with very limited experience, little or no sign you've played many RPGs other than D&D (and that only recent versions), and you read like a high school rules smith from the early 1990's that has time traveled two decades into the future with zero awareness of the last 25 years. I don't dislike you, because believe me, I've had all the exact same thoughts you've voiced over the last few weeks at one time or the other, but I do find you excessively naive regarding reengineering D&D. By all means, ask questions, voice ideas, just don't be surprised if I'm ultimately not the only one going... "Do you realize how many times we've seen these threads, and how many times any novel and workable idea has come out of them?"

You know what they say about assuming? Robed priests and friars traveling as non-combatants have been a thing in fantasy since long before WoW, and I have preferred the flavor since long before WoW. In fact, they are far more common in fantasy than armored melee healers are. Maybe I'm not the one with weak RPG experience.

Just because you assume something isn't workable doesn't make it not workable. Frankly, I'm under no obligation to care how many times you have seen threads like these, and if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute in regard to my original post, you should refrain from posting. Even though it's ridiculous to have to defend myself - I have 94 posts because I just started using enworld, not because I'm brand new to RPGs or rule crafting; but, by all means - go ahead and lord your enworld supremacy over me anyhow.

Perhaps I'm not naive. Perhaps you're just resistant to ideas that aren't your own.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Heavy (and Medium) armor, mace swinging Clerics always felt like they stepped on the Paladin's toes to me. I think there's room for there to be Robed Clerics in the game.

Back in 2E and 3E, Cleric offensive spells were largely weaker or specifically targeted when compared to Wizard spells. I don't really see that as a thing anymore. A spell is a spell. Spells of the same level seem to be balanced against each other now (case in point, spells used to be different levels for different classes, and that's gone now). Clerics have the same number of base spells as the Wizard; clerics get their channel divinity and wizards get their arcane recovery. Clerics still get more HP and medium armor, while wizards get ... I'm really not sure. Better Ritual Casting? At least they become quite a bit more different starting at level 2 and going forward.

I've had the same thoughts, actually - that cleric spells generally aren't really inferior to wizard spells like they used to be. Even the utility argument is hard to make because clerics actually have a lot more spells known, and the ability to heal alone counts for a lot in comparison to the wizard's versatility.

You could almost make the case that clerics only have better defense due to tradition and that they don't even really need it to be balanced with wizards. At the very least, you could get by with simply adding a few good utilitarian spells to the cleric's spell list and probably call it a day as long as you're taking a potent spellcasting path over a divine strike path.

 

[Yunru]

You know what they say about assuming? Robed priests and friars traveling as non-combatants have been a thing in fantasy since long before WoW, and I have preferred the flavor since long before WoW. In fact, they are far more common in fantasy than armored melee healers are. Maybe I'm not the one with weak RPG experience.

Here's where your entire argument breaks down. You're trying to force a combat class to be a non-combat class. Guess what? That's done by simply not using the combat stuff. A Life Cleric wearing no armor and wielding no weapon is a robed priest non-combatant.

You can't, by its very nature, make a non-combatant class that is balanced with combat classes, given that combat is an entire pillar of DnD.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Here's where your entire argument breaks down. You're trying to force a combat class to be a non-combat class. Guess what? That's done by simply not using the combat stuff. A Life Cleric wearing no armor and wielding no weapon is a robed priest non-combatant.

You can't, by its very nature, make a non-combatant class that is balanced with combat classes, given that combat is an entire pillar of DnD.

It should be the most obvious thing in the universe that by "combatant" I mean "armored melee fighter" and not "taking actions during combat encounters". So, no, my "argument" doesn't break down. As if there's even an argument - I want to make a well balanced robe priest concept and people are telling me I can't on the homebrew forum. Lol.

Jesus Christ, people. Just go away.

 

[Yunru]

It should be the most obvious thing in the universe that by "combatant" I mean "armored melee fighter" and not "taking actions during combat encounters". So, no, my "argument" doesn't break down. As if there's even an argument - I want to make a well balanced robe priest concept and people are telling me I can't on the homebrew forum. Lol.

Jesus Christ, people. Just go away.

Okay, name me one of those that "have been a thing in fantasy since long before WoW".
And then name me one reason why they can't be portrayed by the cleric as is.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Okay, name me one of those that "have been a thing in fantasy since long before WoW".

I'm not sure why you think I owe you justification, but I suppose for the sake of "argument" I'll do it anyway:

Game of Thrones
Nome of the Wind
Record of Lodoss War
Shining Force
White Mages from Final Fantasy
Various literary characters
Most clerics, mystics, monks, and seers in real history

Now leave and go troll another thread, please. Thanks.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Thinking about a minimal-impact house rule... How about just adding this custom spell to the Cleric's spell list?

Holy Armor
1st-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a piece of cured leather)
Duration: 8 hours
If you aren't wearing armor, a protective magical force surrounds you until the spell ends.
You have two options when casting this spell.
As a basic option, you are surrounded with a holy protective aura, and your base AC becomes 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
As a more potent option, your base AC becomes 16 + your Dexterity modifier, but the stronger aura radiates a soft light (as a candle) and you suffer disadvantage on Stealth checks.
The spell ends if the target dons armor or if you dismiss the spell as an action.

This is basically a re-skinned Mage Armor for Clerics, except that (1) it's self-target only, and (2) it replicates Chain Shirt (as Mage Armor) or Chain Mail including the Stealth disadvantage.

Optionally you can also let the spell be a Ritual if you don't want the Cleric to waste a daily slot.

I think what I might end up doing is something much like this, with maybe tossing a few extra spells sprinkled throughout the other levels that I think are appropriate. The only other thing is making sure they always get potent spellcasting and bonus cantrip instead of proficiencies and divine strike.

 

[Yunru]

White Mages from Final Fantasy

Are easily represented by the current clerics. They can even were leather armor.

Various literary characters

Are not valid examples, and just proof you couldn't find more examples.

Most clerics, mystics, monks, and seers in real history

Have zero powers, zero weapon training, and thus aren't valid examples. They're also all non-combatants. Except the ones who aren't. But then they wear armor and use weapons.

The rest I can't speak for, because I know not of them.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Are easily represented by the current clerics. They can even were leather armor.
Are not valid examples, and just proof you couldn't find more examples.
Have zero powers, zero weapon training, and thus aren't valid examples. They're also all non-combatants. Except the ones who aren't. But then they wear armor and use weapons.

The rest I can't speak for, because I know not of them.

Bye.

 

[Yunru]

I'm sorry, you're right. It's your choice to ignore the fact that everything you're looking for is already present in the current cleric class.