Modiphius 2d20 System Opinions?

[kronovan]

Of all the TTRPGs I own, 2d20 more than other systems is one you need to experience the dice rolling on the table before it make sense. The only other TTRPG I own that's similar in that regard is The Dark Eye. So those posting comments here who've only watched game plays, before jumping to a conclusions I'd really encourage you to play a few times. Even if it's just a solo session.

In general I like the 2d20 system and have enjoyed GMing and playing STA. That said, IMO a STA GM needs to be on their toes a bit in order to run things successfully - Difficulty, TN compilation and the Threat pool in particular. Some of the things I've read here from people who've viewed it being played, IMO confirms bad GMing.

And I'll add that I was once invited to a Conan table, but after reading the rules I declined - that implementation of 2d20 just didn't grab me. That said, the LGS staff that ran it were all new to TTRPGs and had a wonderful experience with it. Another case in point; I own the Corvis Belli Inifinity 2d20 PDF and bounced off it, yet a commenter here reported having a very good experience with. It just seems 2d20 can be a more polarizing than most TTRPGs, in terms of impressions and experiences. So yeah, I'm far from having the illusion that it's everbody's cup of tea.

...As far as I've seen successful rolls where you get over the TN of successes is the only way to gain momentum.

You can give Threat to the GM in return for the effects of momentum, but it isn't momentum itself.

My issue with 2d20 is generally on TNs of 0 or 1 you stand a chance of gaining momentum (even then you likely need a lucky roll on TN1), on TN's on 2 you are more likely to need to spend momentum (but a lucky roll you are breaking even), on TN 3 or more you are either losing momentum or gaining threat. Generally to be successful probability wise with an decent Attribute+Skill (of at least 15+) you need to be rolling one more dice than the TN. So anything above TN 1 you are running at a loss, at TN 3+ you might as well give up and accept the loss.

The GM has control over the TN and as soon as you hit a difficult TN (due to one thing or another) you end up giving threat (although they start with some anyway). So you end up in a vicious circle where you give Threat to get dice, which means he can spend the threat to raise the TN on the next roll, so you give more threat to get dice to stand a chance.

The players really have very little control over the flow of the metacurrency it is determined by the TN, and the GM controls the TN...

Note that you're confusing TN with Difficulty. Target Number is the sum of an Attribute+Discipline (Star Trek Adventures), or a Skill+Drive (Dune), and is the number a PC needs to roll under with a d20 to achieve a success. Difficulty is the number of successes a PC needs to achieve to succeed at a task. So no, the GM doesn't have control over the TN. Unless a player is suggesting an Attribute+Discipline, or Skill+Drive combination that's a real stretch, and the GM doesn't allow it. In my experiences as a STA GM, that doesn't happen often. Not to mention that a good number of the Attribute+Discipline combinations are stated in the STA rules.

And the annoying thing is all this metacurrency bargining stuff happens before you roll. So it doesn't flow and feel like cinematic action RPG to me...

I haven't read anything to that regard, and note what's stated in the STA and Dune rules regarding Momentum spends.

Dune: "SPENDING MOMENTUM. You can spend Momentum to improve the outcome of a skill test you have passed, such as gaining more information or creating a lasting effect.
After a skill test has passed, the gamemaster describes what happens. You can then spend Momentum to improve his outcome, gain other benefits, or generally make the situation better for you and your allies, or worse for your opponents."

STA: "SPENDING MOMENTUM. Momentum is normally used to improve the outcome of a successful Task, such as gaining more information from research, inflicting more Stress with an attack, or making more progress with an ongoing problem.
When a Task s successful, the Gamemaster will describe the basic outcome of that Task. Momentum may then be spent to improve this outcome, or to gain some other benefit. Momentum used like this doesn’t need to be spent in advance; each point can be spent one at a time as required. "

So, no you don't need to do "metacurrencey bargaining...before you roll."

 

[Staffan]

Ideally in 2d20, it should be a player-driven entry to any given scene. They roleplay what they want, they then choose what to do, then they go about it based on their chosen approach. This means they are usually starting with probing and sneaking and subtle actions, all of which should be on the D0 to D2 side of things.
This you know... lets them generate...Momentum. It let's them build up towards taking a bigger and bigger risks.

IIRC, Star Trek Adventures specifically calls out that most adventures would start with the PCs approaching a planet or weird phenomenon, and they should have the opportunity for some easy scanning rolls (Reason + Science, assisted by the ship's Sensors + Science) specifically to build Momentum. I also believe Infinity says something about ambushes, and how there aren't really any direct modifiers for attacking from an ambush – what happens is that rolling for creating an ambush will usually generate some Momentum which can then be spent on the actual fighting. Same thing with aiming – that's just making a real easy roll in order to generate Momentum for the next roll when you attack (plus there are some weapons which reward you for it).

For those more used to a simulationist bent, that's kind of a weird thing to get used to.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Unfortunately the elegance of the system is marred by lots of complicated talents, officer role abilities, etc. Many of these add rules complexity without really being particularly evocative of any sort of ludonarrative

I think this is true. While 'munchkin-wise' the talents aid with rolls and momentum and such, they are some of the least interesting Talents I have ever seen in a RPG. But to defend that a little.... 2d20 does an interesting thing by putting the 'interesting narrative' on the way players narrate using Momentum and rolls, and so instead of needing evocative Talent text, they kept it lite and mechanical to back up the players' narrative 'text' so to speak. in short, 2d20 "plays" far more intriguing and with more player agency, than it "reads" as

 

[RenleyRenfield]

...Another case in point; I own the Corvis Belli Inifinity 2d20 PDF and bounced off it, yet a commenter here reported having a very good experience with. It just seems 2d20 can be a more polarizing than most TTRPGs, in terms of impressions and experiences. So yeah, I'm far from having the illusion that it's everbody's cup of tea.

Side note, playing Infinity, our lives and fun improved tenfold by using this simplified character sheet (link)

It made purchase rules make waaaaay more sense (they are identical to vigor and other stats, you just attacking your wealth (yourself) with spending/debt)

I ain't gonna say Infinity is perfect, but i will say it did what no other game system has ever done = made hacking seamless and fun. and made social realistic and powerful.

 

[kronovan]

Side note, playing Infinity, our lives and fun improved tenfold by using this simplified character sheet (link)

It made purchase rules make waaaaay more sense (they are identical to vigor and other stats, you just attacking your wealth (yourself) with spending/debt)

I ain't gonna say Infinity is perfect, but i will say it did what no other game system has ever done = made hacking seamless and fun. and made social realistic and powerful.

I'm going to revisit it with another read of my PDF. One of the challengs I have in my TTRPG circles, is that it'd be competing with STA, SWADE+SFC, MGT2e, Cepheus Engine, M-Space and BRP for table time. It was really a coup for me to get one of my groups to agree to a STA campaign - was helped by 2 of them being Trekies and a few others having watched one or more of the TV series.

 

[Bagpuss]

Note that you're confusing TN with Difficulty. Target Number is the sum of an Attribute+Discipline (Star Trek Adventures), or a Skill+Drive (Dune), and is the number a PC needs to roll under with a d20 to achieve a success. Difficulty is the number of successes a PC needs to achieve to succeed at a task. So no, the GM doesn't have control over the TN.

So you are correct read Difficulty for TN in my post, which the GM does have control over by spending threat. Also the GM usually picks the Skill used, and the Player the Drive in Dune for example.

Buy spending before they roll I mean spending Momentum to grant more dice. 1 = +1 dice, 3 = +2 dice, 6 = + 3 dice.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

So you are correct read Difficulty for TN in my post, which the GM does have control over by spending threat. Also the GM usually picks the Skill used, and the Player the Drive in Dune for example.

Buy spending before they roll I mean spending Momentum to grant more dice. 1 = +1 dice, 3 = +2 dice, 6 = + 3 dice.

Side note: that is for Dune. (and maybe only Dune...)

Infinity is always just 1 Momentum spent = +1d20. so +3d20 = 3 Momentum.

I am positive Dune is more stingy with Momentum, but again, Talents remove that problem quickly.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

I'm going to revisit it with another read of my PDF. One of the challengs I have in my TTRPG circles, is that it'd be competing with STA, SWADE+SFC, MGT2e, Cepheus Engine, M-Space and BRP for table time. It was really a coup for me to get one of my groups to agree to a STA campaign - was helped by 2 of them being Trekies and a few others having watched one or more of the TV series.

Oddly enough, I have had players shove away SWADE and BRP in favor of 2d20.
Now we run RuneQuest in 2d20 (Conan) and sci-fi is either Star Trek 1e (we dont like 2e), or Infinity for the rest. Even ran Rogue Trader in Dune...soooo much better!

But I dont think I could sell that to anyone else, our table is odd

 

[Bagpuss]

Side note: that is for Dune. (and maybe only Dune...)

Infinity is always just 1 Momentum spent = +1d20. so +3d20 = 3 Momentum.

I am positive Dune is more stingy with Momentum, but again, Talents remove that problem quickly.

Star Trek 2nd Ed is the same. Also what it says in the current System Reference Docs.

"The normal method of buying additional d20s is by spending Momentum, as discussed later. In brief, this
is paid from the group’s Momentum pool (because it’s done before a Skill Test is rolled), and costs 1
point of Momentum for the first d20, two Momentum for the second d20, and 3 Momentum for the
third d20."

1st dice is 1, to buy the second dice is another 2, and the third extra dice is 3. So 1, 3, 6.

Reading around is seems Conan and John Carter of Mars were 1,2,3. So it seems the earlier games were more generous, but since they have moved to 2nd Ed it is a lot tougher on gaining dice.

Although that does reflect another issue with 2d20, the system isn't the same between games, they each have their own little mechanics some of which even change the core mechanics, so learning one can actually put you at a disadvantage to playing another as you have the wrong ruleset in your head.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Star Trek 2nd Ed is the same. Also what it says in the current System Reference Docs.

"The normal method of buying additional d20s is by spending Momentum, as discussed later. In brief, this
is paid from the group’s Momentum pool (because it’s done before a Skill Test is rolled), and costs 1
point of Momentum for the first d20, two Momentum for the second d20, and 3 Momentum for the
third d20."

1st dice is 1, to buy the second dice is another 2, and the third extra dice is 3. So 1, 3, 6.

Reading around is seems Conan and John Carter of Mars were 1,2,3. So it seems the earlier games were more generous, but since they have moved to 2nd Ed it is a lot tougher on gaining dice.

Not sure what you mean by were 1,2,3, but to be clear Conan and Infinity and John Carter are all 1 for 1.

But it is very much the intent that 2d20 is NOT a unified single system and implementation. Maybe they want to move that direction? Dunno... seems like that answer is a flat No, as recreating Infinity or Conan in the Dune system would entirely change every aspect of play...

not to mention the changes in d6 damage dice...