MoF Incantatrix, wow

[ruleslawyer]

[Originally posted by Oni
This ability really scares me, not for what it does for sorcerers, but what it can do for a wizard. There is a huge disparity between the benefits for a sorcerer and a wizard. If I were to rewrite this class I would replace particular gem with the spell secret power fo the Wu Jen, if I didn't drop it entirely.

Hello again, Oni!

When you've a chance, I really would like to know why you think that Instant Metamagic is so deadly for wizards. Are two free powerups per day that bad?

 

[Oni]

Hello again, Oni!

When you've a chance, I really would like to know why you think that Instant Metamagic is so deadly for wizards. Are two free powerups per day that bad?

Very simple, not only do they get to apply the metamagic on the fly (with out it even being a full round action I might add) which is a great benefit for a wizard, the kicker is that it doesn't increase the level of the spell which allow them to metamagic spells that normally only an epic level caster of significantly higher level could do.

epic wizard has to be somewhere around 26th level to cast a quickedn time stop, an incantatrix only level 17. And that is if the epic wizard devotes all of the feats toward improved spellcasting capacity or improved metamagic.

 

[Epametheus]

Honestly? A sorcerer comes ahead on any prestige class that lets them keep their normal casting progression. The loss of familiar advancement isn't that big a deal; I'd much rather have immunity to energy drain & death attacks than have a familiar that can talk to its own kind. Though on the other hand, I'd much rather have 9th level spells then have immunity to energy drain & death attacks. If all I'm giving up for getting both 9th level spells and those immunities is my familiar not having SR, then that sounds like a very good deal to me (hell, last time I played a wizard I didn't even bother to get a familiar). And that's not even touching what ELSE you may get from the prestige class.

That said, Incantatrix has popped up a few times in the Sultans of Smack, hasn't it? If you can get it at 7th level but it's actually comparable to Archmage, that probably isn't a good sign as far as balance goes..

 

[0-hr]

epic wizard has to be somewhere around 26th level to cast a quickedn time stop, an incantatrix only level 17.

But doesn't the erratta fix exactly that problem?

 

[LokiDR]

Check the errata again Oni. You can not instant metamagic a spell that you normally can not cast. No quickened time stop at 17th level.

 

[LokiDR]

-Improved Metamagic is THE good ability for the class, and it barely "improves" anything at all, given how suboptimal a choice metamagicking is in general. The sorc especially gains little by this, since s/he has to waste a FRA regardless of the feat used or the level cost employed. I agree that the one big problem with this ability is its synergy with stackable Empower Spell, but then I don't think that feat should be stackable in general, especially since the problem comes up again in epic levels once Improved Metamagic is available as a feat.

Imunity to death attacks and energy drain.
The ability to heal yourself easily as a wizard.

If this was only a question of improved meta-magic, I think it would have been errata'd. I would still take this class without it. Then again, without improved meta-magic Archmage, Arcane Disciple and Red Wizard look a lot more appealing.

-Note that I agree that the class is overbalanced. It probably is the best arcane spellcaster PrC out there, largely because most of those PrCs are underpowered. The Arcane Trickster is better, the Fatespinner is probably better, and the Geomancer is more prone to serious abuse, but yes, the Incanatrix is seriously good. That's why I do agree with you that there are needed fixes to the class; I just a) don't think it's "one of the most broken PrCs I've ever seen" (pop open S&F, MotW, or OA to see a big grouping of those); nor b) (snip)

UNDERpowered? What? From where I sit, any PrC that grants +1 spellcaster level for each level of the PrC plus anything I would find useful is better than straight wizard or sorc. Screw the familiar, they can't take the nasty hits and are not that useful. Even if you keep going wiz or sorc, your familar doesn't gain that much. Scry on familiar? No thanks, I'll just buy the crystal ball for 42,000.

Slightly off topic: how are you going to abuse Geomancer? A sorc/cleric with armor of command? I have seen and used far more abuses with Incantantrix than Geomancer. S&F wasn't broken, it brought up the fighters to the level of the tricked out mage or cleric. MotW? For what, Blighter, Oozemaster, and Windrider? I have seen more abuses from DotF, from items like armor of command and armor of speed, to prestiege domains like celerity, to templar granting weapon specialization, the only real reason to go with fighter.

 

[hammymchamham]

the good news is they fixed the armor of speed

 

[LokiDR]

Ya, but I had a lot of fun before I noticed that

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Armor of Command? That's a +1 Mithral Buckler of Command to you, buddy...

 

[Victim]

Oni: Thank you for posting your objections to the Incanatrix PrC. That's what I meant by "rationale."

As to your points:

-IMHO, Iron Will is a burn feat for a class with a good Will save. But maybe that's just me.

-A sorc is only getting access to the Instant Metamagic ability twice per day, that too at 13th and 15th character level minimum, respectively. Is that really broken?

-Improved Metamagic is THE good ability for the class, and it barely "improves" anything at all, given how suboptimal a choice metamagicking is in general. The sorc especially gains little by this, since s/he has to waste a FRA regardless of the feat used or the level cost employed. I agree that the one big problem with this ability is its synergy with stackable Empower Spell, but then I don't think that feat should be stackable in general, especially since the problem comes up again in epic levels once Improved Metamagic is available as a feat.

-Yes, the class gets too many bonus feats. See my post above.

-Note that I agree that the class is overbalanced. It probably is the best arcane spellcaster PrC out there, largely because most of those PrCs are underpowered. The Arcane Trickster is better, the Fatespinner is probably better, and the Geomancer is more prone to serious abuse, but yes, the Incanatrix is seriously good. That's why I do agree with you that there are needed fixes to the class; I just a) don't think it's "one of the most broken PrCs I've ever seen" (pop open S&F, MotW, or OA to see a big grouping of those); nor b) do I welcome a response that has nothing constructive to say (your first post). Thanks for posting a well-thought-out response subsequently.




And yes, familiar advancement is NOT granted by any PrCs unless expressly stated in the class description (for example, the alienist grants this).

Actually, Iron Will isn't really a burn feat for wizards. Let's take a hypothetical 9th level wizard with 14 WIS. His Will save is +8. Against something like a Mind Blast, he needs an 11. His save isn't so high that can't benefit from Iron Will. However, this wizard isn't stupid - he could have a 24 INT with magical aid - so he crafts himself a Cloak of Resistance +3. His Will save becomes +11. That's pretty good odds, but I'd want better if I was gambling with my life. Also, there's the matter of NPC casters instead of monsters. His 3rd level spells are DC 20 and his best ones are DC 22. While the enemy wizard might decide that a 50% chance of success isn't worth a 5th level, the target couldn't be too confident either.

However, we're talking about FR stuff. The enemy wizard could have Greater Spell Focus, SCP, etc. The DC on the Dominate just jumped to 27. Now there's a 75% chance that you'll be a nice slave. And we aren't even including other prestige classes. Both the Iron Will feat and the reinforced Will save will be very neccessary.

Immunity to death effects and level draining is a great feature, as it shuts down almost the entire necromancy school.