Monk Feedback
- Thread starter Byronic
- Start date
Eric Finley
First Post
As written, I'm seeing this class as having a feat tax: Martial Training (Dex). Conceptually, you'd expect the monk to be very good at opportunity attacks, but without this feat, they're screwed (especially Wis-based monks). At the very least, give them one at-will which (a) isn't a Full Discipline, and (b) can be used as a melee basic attack. That way they can take either that, or Martial Training, or opt to be poor at opportunity attacks, but they've got sufficient options that the latter is a legitimate choice.
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And I'll ditto that the "you can enchant a fist" mechanics suffer because of the way treasure is given out to other characters. Giving item levels as treasure is an excellent concept but it's a very soft, DM-dependent mechanic, one which likely won't see a lot of use from new DMs, who therefore will be leaving those monks capped at Level+0 magic items. Not to mention that the monks do not themselves get Ritual Magic.
Here's a better way to do it. Add a paragraph something like this to the class description:
Improving Monk Unarmed Attacks As Treasure
Each monk possesses an inherent weapon, the monk unarmed attack. This poses difficulties when distributing treasure; what, you find a better fist in the sarcophagus? GMs with monk PCs should read the section on granting item levels as treasure (pg XX), and plan on this basis. When you insert an enchanted monk unarmed strike into an adventure, check it off your treasure parcels as normal, but rather than an item, include it as an event, which grants the monk an enchanted unarmed strike. Good events include both inward-driven ones (the monk learns a lesson about humility) and outward-driven ones (the monk passes his hand through the fire, and when he withdraws it his hand remains ablaze anytime it forms a fist). At that point, provide the monk with this new 'item', and let him decide what to do with it. Monks who possess multiple enchanted strikes may switch back and forth with a minor action, "putting away" the one they no longer need and "drawing" the new one. If a monk wishes to forget (i.e. disenchant) an enchanted strike, the Disenchant Item ritual is not required; the monk informs the DM and the DM adds the sale value of the lost strike to the treasure available for the remainder of the adventure, in whatever form he sees fit.
This way, you're not capping monk PCs to the Level+0 point, but you're not relying on DMs to discover the Item Levels as Treasure rules without prompting, nor to figure out just how they should use those rules for this situation.
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Oh, and inclusion of spears on the list opens up one immediately obvious cheese: the Urugosh, both ends of which are usable by virtue of the whole shebang being a "Spear," despite the fact that in the descriptive text it explicitly then says that the axe-head is d12, and the spear-head is d8. Just one more case where their double weapons were a terrible handling of a stupid situation in the first place. (How hard would it have been to simply rule that a double weapon is exactly equivalent to two weapons, magical or nonmagical, "welded" together for style reasons? At most, make "double weapon" a Superior Weapon type [or just a feat!] which lets you meld two one-handed weapons into a double weapon, obviating the need for the Off-Hand property for the second one. Duplicates a TWF ranger feature, but better that than superseding it! /rant)
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Whirling Mantis Step (Monk Daily 1) is poorly phrased. On first read, it sounds like you get the attack after each slide (of an enemy), not after the full shift is completed. A clarification would help.
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Dance of the Stinging Hornet (Monk Encounter 13) will arguably not work as intended, for several reasons. If you make the move first, you can't enter the larger creature's space in the first place. Then at some point during the move, you make the attack, granting you (if you hit) the ability to stop your move in their space if they are larger than you. Now, in order for the power to work, you would need to continue the movement into their square - a square which had clearly not been part of your planned jump originally.
Yes, the rules do not actually specify that you first plot and then execute your movement. You can change it midmove in response to something that happens (such as landing the hit with Dance of the Stinging Hornet). In fact, rereading the Jump rules, anybody - not just a monk - can in fact change directions in midair during a jump, as they see fit, since it's just part of a move action. However, this power is going to give headaches to players and DMs trying for a slightly more gritty, less wuxia monk - which is a pity because otherwise it's not a bad power for that style of character.
In addition, if you use this against a character who is not larger than you, then you'll again be stretching the group's suspension of disbelief to use this power as intended. Because in that case, nothing about the power as written says you can end the jump upon succeeding with the grab. And in this case, Athletics: Jump is unclear. "You land in the square determined by the result" is the exact wording. This certainly could be argued as more specific than the general "you may end your movement at any time, you need not take the whole move." In fact, if the general one obtains, then obviously you will never trigger the last clause in the Long Jumping box: "If you run out of movement, you fall. You can end your first move in midair if you double move (page 284)." If you can end your jump at any point in the jump's movement, then why would you ever fall (rather than just land) at the end of a single move?
So if you use this on a creature your own size, and grapple him in the middle of the jump (where we intuitively would expect it to work best), arguably you must carry on past, often breaking the grab again immediately. Even on a creature which is larger than you, one could certainly assert that the clause "you may end your movement in its square" reads as an exception to the rule that you cannot normally enter an enemy's square, not as an exception to the ambiguous quasirule "you can't end a jump early".
This is a really cool power but it needs clarification badly. Adding a clause to the move action to the effect of "You can use the attack technique at any point during your movement, and if you hit, you need not use all of the remainder of your jumped distance" would be helpful here. Or, if you do not want to create something which might look like an exception to a general rule, simply "After the attack, you can replan the rest of the move and (as is always the case) end it early if desired."
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There is no mechanical justification for the last paragraph of the flavour text on the Radiant Fist paragon path. In fact, Radiant Fist appears to do just the reverse - it bolsters you and gives you physical reserves, via both Radiant Fist's Action and Undimmed Sun. There's certainly no sign of it taxing them (via some kind of tradeoff). Yes, this is only flavour text... but it's jarring.
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And I'll ditto that the "you can enchant a fist" mechanics suffer because of the way treasure is given out to other characters. Giving item levels as treasure is an excellent concept but it's a very soft, DM-dependent mechanic, one which likely won't see a lot of use from new DMs, who therefore will be leaving those monks capped at Level+0 magic items. Not to mention that the monks do not themselves get Ritual Magic.
Here's a better way to do it. Add a paragraph something like this to the class description:
Improving Monk Unarmed Attacks As Treasure
Each monk possesses an inherent weapon, the monk unarmed attack. This poses difficulties when distributing treasure; what, you find a better fist in the sarcophagus? GMs with monk PCs should read the section on granting item levels as treasure (pg XX), and plan on this basis. When you insert an enchanted monk unarmed strike into an adventure, check it off your treasure parcels as normal, but rather than an item, include it as an event, which grants the monk an enchanted unarmed strike. Good events include both inward-driven ones (the monk learns a lesson about humility) and outward-driven ones (the monk passes his hand through the fire, and when he withdraws it his hand remains ablaze anytime it forms a fist). At that point, provide the monk with this new 'item', and let him decide what to do with it. Monks who possess multiple enchanted strikes may switch back and forth with a minor action, "putting away" the one they no longer need and "drawing" the new one. If a monk wishes to forget (i.e. disenchant) an enchanted strike, the Disenchant Item ritual is not required; the monk informs the DM and the DM adds the sale value of the lost strike to the treasure available for the remainder of the adventure, in whatever form he sees fit.
This way, you're not capping monk PCs to the Level+0 point, but you're not relying on DMs to discover the Item Levels as Treasure rules without prompting, nor to figure out just how they should use those rules for this situation.
-----------------
Oh, and inclusion of spears on the list opens up one immediately obvious cheese: the Urugosh, both ends of which are usable by virtue of the whole shebang being a "Spear," despite the fact that in the descriptive text it explicitly then says that the axe-head is d12, and the spear-head is d8. Just one more case where their double weapons were a terrible handling of a stupid situation in the first place. (How hard would it have been to simply rule that a double weapon is exactly equivalent to two weapons, magical or nonmagical, "welded" together for style reasons? At most, make "double weapon" a Superior Weapon type [or just a feat!] which lets you meld two one-handed weapons into a double weapon, obviating the need for the Off-Hand property for the second one. Duplicates a TWF ranger feature, but better that than superseding it! /rant)
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Whirling Mantis Step (Monk Daily 1) is poorly phrased. On first read, it sounds like you get the attack after each slide (of an enemy), not after the full shift is completed. A clarification would help.
-------------
Dance of the Stinging Hornet (Monk Encounter 13) will arguably not work as intended, for several reasons. If you make the move first, you can't enter the larger creature's space in the first place. Then at some point during the move, you make the attack, granting you (if you hit) the ability to stop your move in their space if they are larger than you. Now, in order for the power to work, you would need to continue the movement into their square - a square which had clearly not been part of your planned jump originally.
Yes, the rules do not actually specify that you first plot and then execute your movement. You can change it midmove in response to something that happens (such as landing the hit with Dance of the Stinging Hornet). In fact, rereading the Jump rules, anybody - not just a monk - can in fact change directions in midair during a jump, as they see fit, since it's just part of a move action. However, this power is going to give headaches to players and DMs trying for a slightly more gritty, less wuxia monk - which is a pity because otherwise it's not a bad power for that style of character.
In addition, if you use this against a character who is not larger than you, then you'll again be stretching the group's suspension of disbelief to use this power as intended. Because in that case, nothing about the power as written says you can end the jump upon succeeding with the grab. And in this case, Athletics: Jump is unclear. "You land in the square determined by the result" is the exact wording. This certainly could be argued as more specific than the general "you may end your movement at any time, you need not take the whole move." In fact, if the general one obtains, then obviously you will never trigger the last clause in the Long Jumping box: "If you run out of movement, you fall. You can end your first move in midair if you double move (page 284)." If you can end your jump at any point in the jump's movement, then why would you ever fall (rather than just land) at the end of a single move?
So if you use this on a creature your own size, and grapple him in the middle of the jump (where we intuitively would expect it to work best), arguably you must carry on past, often breaking the grab again immediately. Even on a creature which is larger than you, one could certainly assert that the clause "you may end your movement in its square" reads as an exception to the rule that you cannot normally enter an enemy's square, not as an exception to the ambiguous quasirule "you can't end a jump early".
This is a really cool power but it needs clarification badly. Adding a clause to the move action to the effect of "You can use the attack technique at any point during your movement, and if you hit, you need not use all of the remainder of your jumped distance" would be helpful here. Or, if you do not want to create something which might look like an exception to a general rule, simply "After the attack, you can replan the rest of the move and (as is always the case) end it early if desired."
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There is no mechanical justification for the last paragraph of the flavour text on the Radiant Fist paragon path. In fact, Radiant Fist appears to do just the reverse - it bolsters you and gives you physical reserves, via both Radiant Fist's Action and Undimmed Sun. There's certainly no sign of it taxing them (via some kind of tradeoff). Yes, this is only flavour text... but it's jarring.
The flurry acts like a sorcerer's damage bonus. Essentially your secondary feat added to damage. But, you can chose to apply it to someone else without an attack roll, and if you do, you gain an added benefit. Multiclass fighter/monk anyone?
So, while the damage might lag behind, they have better minion killing ability, and other, different benefits. Who is going to be able to pierce the front line better, a two weapon ranger, or a monk? If all strikers had equivalent damage, then why would you play a ranger, when you could play a monk with all it's momement and other goodness?
It has a good flavor. I don't really think I want to play one, though.
Jay
So, while the damage might lag behind, they have better minion killing ability, and other, different benefits. Who is going to be able to pierce the front line better, a two weapon ranger, or a monk? If all strikers had equivalent damage, then why would you play a ranger, when you could play a monk with all it's momement and other goodness?
It has a good flavor. I don't really think I want to play one, though.
Jay
Klaus
First Post
Another feedback against "Centered Breath". I'd much prefer "Centered Self" or something to that effect.
I also think giving a monk Melee Training (Dex) as a bonus feat (like the 2-blade ranger gets Toughness) would round out the class without needing to give it another at-will with the "can be used as basic melee attack" notation.
I also think giving a monk Melee Training (Dex) as a bonus feat (like the 2-blade ranger gets Toughness) would round out the class without needing to give it another at-will with the "can be used as basic melee attack" notation.
My list:
1) Religion needed as a class skill.
2) Clarification on Implement damage to the Flurry of Blows (though I would bet money that similar to the brutal scoundrel rogue, the strength monk will get the bigger damage).
3) A better written paragraph on Full Disciplines, people should only have to read it once to get it.
4) Change the Centered Breath name, call it Focused Mind or something.
5) Change the name of the Fortitude boosting ability (calling something that boosts your Fort "Mental" anything seems wrong).
6) Consider giving the Monk auto upgrades to his hands every 5 levels, or provide him a monk only ritual that works on himself (which I think fits the flavor well). I think for mechanics and flavor we need a way to keep unarmed damage competitive without just slapping on the magic....especially now that monks no longer really have the advantage of not using a weapon, for its far harder to target a weapon in 4e than 3e.
7) If flurry of blows does not apply implement damage, consider upping the damage. Compared to the sorc, the monks damage isn't even close (though I would argue the sorc has the best striker mechanic currently).
8) Upgrade the at wills at 21st level (probably just a typo).
9) You could give the monk the "Defensive Mobility" feat as a bonus feat, to represent all of that extreme mobility. To me this helps (a little bit) to balance there lack of AC compared to some other strikers.
1) Religion needed as a class skill.
2) Clarification on Implement damage to the Flurry of Blows (though I would bet money that similar to the brutal scoundrel rogue, the strength monk will get the bigger damage).
3) A better written paragraph on Full Disciplines, people should only have to read it once to get it.
4) Change the Centered Breath name, call it Focused Mind or something.
5) Change the name of the Fortitude boosting ability (calling something that boosts your Fort "Mental" anything seems wrong).
6) Consider giving the Monk auto upgrades to his hands every 5 levels, or provide him a monk only ritual that works on himself (which I think fits the flavor well). I think for mechanics and flavor we need a way to keep unarmed damage competitive without just slapping on the magic....especially now that monks no longer really have the advantage of not using a weapon, for its far harder to target a weapon in 4e than 3e.
7) If flurry of blows does not apply implement damage, consider upping the damage. Compared to the sorc, the monks damage isn't even close (though I would argue the sorc has the best striker mechanic currently).
8) Upgrade the at wills at 21st level (probably just a typo).
9) You could give the monk the "Defensive Mobility" feat as a bonus feat, to represent all of that extreme mobility. To me this helps (a little bit) to balance there lack of AC compared to some other strikers.
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Xris Robin
First Post
Speaking of Dance of the Stinging Hornet, if you use it on a enemy larger than you... they are NOT immobilized. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of grabbing them? Now you're basically just riding the enemy around. Kinda funny, but how is that really useful?
Xris Robin
First Post
Are you allowed to attack while grabbing something? And can you still move something you're grabbing while err, "riding" it?
