Monk Grapple AoO

[Peter Gibbons]

Should a wolf, after making his single melee attack, be able to take an extra free action outside of his own turn to trip you... when the Trip text makes no provision for the free action to be available outside the normal turn sequence?

Yes.

 

[RigaMortus2]

And they're labelled as such.

A less-fuzzy example is the wolf/dog Trip special attack:

A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity.

If you provoke an AoO, I can't hit you with my dagger, then cast a Quickened Magic Missile. It's not my turn, and free actions are taken during your turn, and an AoO is a single melee attack. The AoO doesn't allow me to work an extra free action in there.

Likewise, if you provoke an AoO, I can't drop my dagger, quickdraw my greatsword, and hit you with it.

Should a wolf, after making his single melee attack, be able to take an extra free action outside of his own turn to trip you... when the Trip text makes no provision for the free action to be available outside the normal turn sequence?

-Hyp.

Not sure it matters, but in the Trip and Grapple examples, they are all part of the same "action". A Grapple, for example, works in stages. You make your touch attack, possibly provoke, finish the grab, then oppose roll to finally grapple. All these steps are part of the Grapple "action". Likewise with the Wolf. As part of the same attack action, he gets to Trip for free. It is all part of the same attack. The examples of free actions you give are all seperate actions from one another. You can't make an AoO and cast a Quickened MM because they are seperate actions. But, let's say your Dagger had an ability to cast magic missile 1/round as a free action on a successful hit. Then I would say it works.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If the lion was running, he loses his Dex.

Lions have the Run feat, so no he doesn't.

And in doing so, loses the ability to make an AoO himself.

Even assuming a lion without the Run, where do you get that losing your Dex bonus means that you do not get to make AoOs? Are you thinking of flat-footed or have I missed something?

Not sure it matters, but in the Trip and Grapple examples, they are all part of the same "action". A Grapple, for example, works in stages. You make your touch attack, possibly provoke, finish the grab, then oppose roll to finally grapple. All these steps are part of the Grapple "action". Likewise with the Wolf. As part of the same attack action, he gets to Trip for free. It is all part of the same attack. The examples of free actions you give are all seperate actions from one another. You can't make an AoO and cast a Quickened MM because they are seperate actions. But, let's say your Dagger had an ability to cast magic missile 1/round as a free action on a successful hit. Then I would say it works.

I agree with this. Otherwise, with a spell storing weapon, you cannot discharge the spell on an AoO. Creature with improved grab also could not grab you as part of an AoO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the lion was running, he loses his Dex.

Right.

And in doing so, loses the ability to make an AoO himself.

Source? "Denied Dex bonus to AC" and "Flat-Footed" are not the same thing.

If you're flat-footed, no AoO. If you're denied Dex for some other reason, however, you can make an AoO just fine.

As part of the same attack action, he gets to Trip for free.

It's not part of an attack action. It's a free action.

Why do you say it's part of the same attack? If he hits with a bite attack, he can attempt to trip. He's not tripping as part of the bite attack; he's tripping as a free action if his bite attack hits.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I agree with this. Otherwise, with a spell storing weapon, you cannot discharge the spell on an AoO. Creature with improved grab also could not grab you as part of an AoO.

If they left out the phrase 'as a free action', or if they replaced it with wording similar to Cleave, it wouldn't be an issue.

Similarly, if the Cleave text stated "make a melee attack as a free action", then the people who dislike allowing Cleave on an AoO would have a solid rules-based reason to forbid it.

But it does say 'as a free action'.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

If they left out the phrase 'as a free action', or if they replaced it with wording similar to Cleave, it wouldn't be an issue.

Similarly, if the Cleave text stated "make a melee attack as a free action", then the people who dislike allowing Cleave on an AoO would have a solid rules-based reason to forbid it.

But it does say 'as a free action'.

-Hyp.

And that's all that matters, right Hype?

 

[Hypersmurf]

And that's all that matters, right Hype?

A consistent basis from which to make rulings is desirable, surely?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If they left out the phrase 'as a free action', or if they replaced it with wording similar to Cleave, it wouldn't be an issue.

An intriguing point, to be sure. I can't dispute it. I had not realized it pointed out that maintaining the grapple requires a free action. How does the rule that allows DMs to restrict the number of free actions per round affect grappling?

 

[Hypersmurf]

How does the rule that allows DMs to restrict the number of free actions per round affect grappling?

It depends on the DM, and what he considers 'reasonable'

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

A consistent basis from which to make rulings is desirable, surely?

-Hyp.

If only the rules were actually consistent, you would have a point. Unfortunately, they aren't consistent.

Since they rules themselves are not always consistent, I think that such narrow RAW interpretations make the game less consistent, not more consistent. It also makes the game more complicated than is intended or needed.

Forcing people to break up what is normally a single action over 2 rounds makes it much more complicated.

Besides which, I don't think the RAW actually support your position.

Grapples are listed as an action that can be done in place of a single attack. A single attack is not an action (it's something you use the standard or full attack action to do). So when a grapple is replacing an attack, it's no longer an action either, which is why it can be done when it's not your turn.

Also, a grapple is not just the initial touch attack, it's also the grapple check afterward, the damage dealt on a successful check, and moving into the targets square. By forcing the PC to stop the grapple in the middle, you are contradicting the explicit rule that allows a grapple to be performed as an attack or even an AoO.