Monk Grapple AoO

[Hypersmurf]

Grapples are listed as an action that can be done in place of a single attack. A single attack is not an action (it's something you use the standard or full attack action to do). So when a grapple is replacing an attack, it's no longer an action either, which is why it can be done when it's not your turn.

The action type of 'Grapple' is 'varies', and can replace an AoO.

The action type of 'Step 3: Hold' is 'free action'. It isn't 'no longer an action'.

If being 'no longer an action' is why 'Grapple' can be done when it's not your turn, then wouldn't being a 'free action' still disallow 'Step 3: Hold' from being done when it's not your turn?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

The action type of 'Grapple' is 'varies', and can replace an AoO.

The action type of 'Step 3: Hold' is 'free action'. It isn't 'no longer an action'.

If being 'no longer an action' is why 'Grapple' can be done when it's not your turn, then wouldn't being a 'free action' still disallow 'Step 3: Hold' from being done when it's not your turn?

-Hyp.

Nope. That's all part of the grapple action, and it's all now "not an action", just like any other attack used on an AoO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nope. That's all part of the grapple action, and it's all now "not an action", just like any other attack used on an AoO.

But when you replace the single attack in an attack action or charge action, or one of the attacks in a full round action, isn't the grapple 'not an action' as well?

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

Ok, lets try to look at this rationally.

First, consequences. If we follow Hyp's literal reading, you can't grapple off an AoO. In order to grapple, you must move into your opponents space. This is not possible if you can't make the grapple check. In other words, you can slap (touch attack) the lion as it runs by, but nothing more.

In dealing with AoOs "immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn)." The AoO allows you a "single melee attack". Grappling falls under 'special melee attacks' and is not a full-round action. It looks like a melee attack that needs to be resolved to me.

On the issue of rules, the SRD states "Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free." Is it reasonable to assume you can find the 'very small amount of time' to perform the free action of the grapple check? Immediate actions "represents a larger expendature of effort and energy than a free action" yet can be taken outside your turn.

Grappling is already hard enough, lets try to keep it in the paridigm of the rest of the rules. AoO grapples should work as well as AoO trips or bull rushes. Or, can I not drop my spiked chain to avoid being tripped in return?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or, can I not drop my spiked chain to avoid being tripped in return?

That depends on whether or not "If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped" means "you can take the Drop An Item free action to drop the chaing to avoid being tripped", or whether it's a special ability of the weapon that doesn't require an action.

-Hyp.

 

[Evilhalfling]

On a grapple tangent -

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a giant octopus must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Does this mean that the octopus could get 8 grapple attempts? or do you do all the melee attacks and then have one grapple/constrict chance vs one of the targets struck that round?

and why does this not allow an improved grab on an AoO again?

 

[LokiDR]

That depends on whether or not "If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped" means "you can take the Drop An Item free action to drop the chaing to avoid being tripped", or whether it's a special ability of the weapon that doesn't require an action.

-Hyp.

Regardless of the specific text, those two statements are roughly equivelant. It is an action, outside of the single attack, that you can take during an AoO.

Would you care to comment on any of the rest of the argument?

 

[Caliban]

Ok, lets try to look at this rationally.

No, you can't do that. That's not RAW.

RAW doesn't allow for rational thought or common sense. It doesn't matter how stupid or ridiculous the conclusion you reach, RAW has to be the only possible way to read it.

RAW gives you mundane weapons that convert magical fire damage to non-lethal damage.

RAW gives you flaming weapons that you don't need to activate in order to do the fire damage.

RAW forces you to keep track of the exact square a creature was summoned in, no matter how far it moves, in case someone wants to dispel the creature by including that square.

RAW means that the Blink spell makes you both ethereal and incorporeal.

RAW means that you can't use Resist Energy on yourself more than once to gain resistance to multiple energy types.

RAW is so consistent, don't you agree?

 

[LokiDR]

and why does this not allow an improved grab on an AoO again?

If Hyp is right, you cannot take the free action to attempt to grapple outside your turn. In other words, you can swim past the octopus without fear of it grabbing you, though it can hit you.

 

[LokiDR]

No, you can't do that. That's not RAW.

RAW doesn't allow for rational thought or common sense. It doesn't matter how stupid or ridiculous the conclusion you reach, RAW has to be the only possible way to read it.

RAW is so consistent, don't you agree?

The RAW was written by writers, not legal scholars. And there are, I might add, holes in laws too. Its a game, and anyone who is willing to play the stupid literal interpretations is saying, in essence, rules are more important than the game. In this case, I think the 'free action' and 'no action outside of your turn' is just an oversight. I can bull rush you on an AoO but not grapple? I'll opt for common sense over stupid rulings.

RAW gives you mundane weapons that convert magical fire damage to non-lethal damage.

RAW gives you flaming weapons that you don't need to activate in order to do the fire damage.

These example intrigue me. Can you give me details?