Monk Grappling & Flurry of Blows

[Hypersmurf]

I disagree.

"In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so."

Given that Flurry of Blows only adds a maximum of two extra attacks, then if 'flurry of blows routine' refers only to those extra attacks, how can you ever have 'enough attacks in your flurry of blows routine' to intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes?

One unarmed strike and one quarterstaff strike isn't "interspersing".

If a Monk 15 is using a quarterstaff, he gets three attacks from BAB and two extra attacks if he uses Flurry of Blows. Does he get to add 1.5x Str bonus to the first three attacks, and only 1x to the extra attacks? If only the extra attacks are considered 'part of the flurry of blows', then the first three attacks should follow the normal rule for attacking with a two-handed weapon, right?

If every attack gets 1x Str bonus, though, it means that every attack is "part of the flurry of blows", and thus using non-monk weapons at all in the same full attack action as a Flurry is prohibited.

-Hyp.

 

[AGGEMAM]

I don't really see the problem here. An unarmed strike is a subset of unarmed melee attack which in turn is a subset of melee attack which in its turn is a subset of the attack action which in turn is a subset of the standard action.

In other words were are the bottom of the chain here, and you can't go up the chain to choose another link.

It is entirely like you can't take an action if all you have is a move, but you can take a move if all you have is an action.

Flurry of blows specifies an unarmed strike or attacks with special monk weapons, that means you can't go up the chain and choose trip or disarm instead. It is simply not allowed by the rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Back it up. Let's see those 'unarmed strike' and 'unarmed attack' definitions.

Not having access to a glossary right now, I'm afraid I'll have to take a rain check... but I'd note that glossary definitions are notoriously unreliable for basing rulings off, and are always subservient to the appropriate section in the body of the text...

Plus, you counted wrong: it's four maneuvers--and only three of them are 'tricky'.

Only four if you've got Improved Grapple.

Unarmed Strike, Initiate Grapple, deal Grapple Damage, Use Opponent's Weapon, Disarm.

-Hyp.

 

[jessemock]

I don't really see the problem here. An unarmed strike is a subset of unarmed melee attack

You're wrong right there: look up the definition of 'unarmed strike' in the glossary. An 'unarmed strike' is an effect of a melee attack; it is "a successful blow...".

An unarmed strike is not a melee attack.

Flurry of blows specifies an unarmed strike or attacks with special monk weapons, that means you can't go up the chain and choose trip or disarm instead. It is simply not allowed by the rules.

And if you can point out the definition of 'unarmed strike' as a melee attack, I would be much obliged--especially if you demonstrate that it excludes Trip, Disarm, and Grapple attempts.

 

[jessemock]

but I'd note that glossary definitions are notoriously unreliable for basing rulings off, and are always subservient to the appropriate section in the body of the text...

-Hyp.

Is that a tournement rule?

 

[Caliban]

"In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so."

Given that Flurry of Blows only adds a maximum of two extra attacks, then if 'flurry of blows routine' refers only to those extra attacks, how can you ever have 'enough attacks in your flurry of blows routine' to intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes?

One unarmed strike and one quarterstaff strike isn't "interspersing".

If a Monk 15 is using a quarterstaff, he gets three attacks from BAB and two extra attacks if he uses Flurry of Blows. Does he get to add 1.5x Str bonus to the first three attacks, and only 1x to the extra attacks? If only the extra attacks are considered 'part of the flurry of blows', then the first three attacks should follow the normal rule for attacking with a two-handed weapon, right?

If every attack gets 1x Str bonus, though, it means that every attack is "part of the flurry of blows", and thus using non-monk weapons at all in the same full attack action as a Flurry is prohibited.

-Hyp.

Trips are defined as an unarmed attack.
Disarm can be done as an unarmed attack.

The monk Unarmed Strike class ability also refers to itself as an "unarmed attack" (Page 41, 1st column, last sentence).

So it seems that a monk's "Unarmed Strike" is also an "Unarmed attack", and you can freely substitute Trips when unarmed, or when armed with a monk weapon that can trip. You can also freely substitue Disarm attacks when unarmed or fighting with a monk weapon.

The only one that seems to be handled differently is Grapple, and that's more an inference than a direct statement. (The monk unarmed strike ability states "she has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling [see page 156].")

The grapple description doesn't make any direct references to grapple as being an unarmed attack, but most of the examples and flavor text show it being done unarmed or with natural weapons (if you have Improved Grab). Yet you can increase your grapple damage by using a manufactured weapon (armor spikes add +1d6 damage on a successfull grapple check).

Grapple seems to be it's own little combat sub-system, different from melee or ranged combat, with it's own modifiers (size modifiers work differently, and you don't use AC or attack rolls, just opposed grapple checks).

The real question is, does a grapple attempt count as an unarmed attack for the purposes of a monks flurry ability. By the text of the monk class, the answer seems to be "No" but I'm really not sure if that is the intent.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise by a reasonable arguement (as I play a monk grappler sometimes), but I haven't seen it so far.

 

[jessemock]

Only four if you've got Improved Grapple.

Unarmed Strike, Initiate Grapple, deal Grapple Damage, Use Opponent's Weapon, Disarm.

-Hyp.

No; only if you don't take damage from the AoO.

 

[AGGEMAM]

And if you can point out the definition of 'unarmed strike' as a melee attack,

? An unarmed attack is a subset of the attack action, right ? Are you following this far ? And an unarmed strike is a subset of an unarmed attack, yes ?

If your only possible option available is to make an unarmed strike then you can't change that into a trip or disarm or grapple if you like, just like you can't change it into casting spells or moving, but the later two thing might also be ok in your campaign ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

No; only if you don't take damage from the AoO.

Gah. Yeah.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The real question is, does a grapple attempt count as an unarmed attack for the purposes of a monks flurry ability. By the text of the monk class, the answer seems to be "No" but I'm really not sure if that is the intent.

Did you quote the right message?

I agree with pretty much everything you said there, but it didn't seem to address at all the message you quoted.

I'm saying "Every attack in the full attack action that uses Flurry of Blows is considered 'part of the Flurry of Blows'"; you said you disagree. I posted the message you just quoted in response to that disagreement. You replied with something about Trips and Disarms being unarmed attacks. I'm... not at all sure what the relevance is to the text you quoted.

You even quoted the question about strength bonus to a quarterstaff, but didn't do anything with it...?

-Hyp.