Monk Initiating a Grapple

[jayaint]

Okay, situation is this:

1st level monk charging to initiate a grapple.

He has Improved Grapple, so he does not incur an attack of oppurtunity. He also has (house-ruled w/o "+1 BAB" prereq) Weapon Fineese (unarmed). Would his melee touch attack to start the grapple (with a grab) receive:

a) the +2 from the charge? Thinking about the situation as it happens, I'm not sure that it would. Someone running and jumping on someone wouldn't NECCESARILY make it easier to "touch" the person; to "grab" which is how it is labeled in the PHB. But it seems as though the "charge" bonus would be more aptly carried over to the opposed grapple check. This is, however, the "melee attack at the end of a charge", so I am unsure.

b) +2 from his Dex from Weapon Finesse? It is a touch attack, and after scanning the PHB, it appears that I would receive that bonus. I mean, keeping a DEX bonus for the purposes of just "touching" someone makes sense, right?

The two combatants are the same size modifier, and I will probably lose my opposed grapple check with the half-orc fighter anyways (even with the +2 from the charge, should that be allowed) but he's young and stupid and willing to jump in the fray.

Any thoughts?

-jay

 

[JimAde]

In my opinion, yes you would get both the Weapon Finesse and Charge bonuses on the initial touch attack. You would not get either bonus on the ensuing Grapple check, however. You will, of course get your +4 for Improved Grapple on the grapple check, so I'm giving you even money against the half-orc.

EDIT: I didn't even realize it was you, Jay. The above answer is unbiased by the fact that I'll get a sneak attack on the half-orc if you succeed!

 

[jayaint]

I'm sure I should take JimAde's advice with a grain of salt seeing as how he stands to gain from it... LOL.

We'll see if any other rules-lawyers want to take a shot, and then I'll take it back to our PbP game (Indy's Sunless Citadel, check the sig.) and try to make it work. Thanks, JA.

-jay

Edit: hehe. It was good to see team members sticking up for each other... So, yeah... hurray for Sneak Attacks!!!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes, you get all the bonuses you described.

You get a +2 for charging.

When making a touch attack, you may benefit from weapon finesse.

Note that Weapon Finesse replaces your Strength bonus on to hit rolls with your Dex bonus; it does not just add your Dex bonus. I don't know if that's what you're doing, but it's possible given the way you've described things.

 

[jayaint]

I was not adding the dex, but replacing... thanks for the clarification, however. Wow.. I can't believe I figured this out correctly, it seems. *woohoo*

Thanks for the help.

-jay

 

[Lord Pendragon]

a) the +2 from the charge? Thinking about the situation as it happens, I'm not sure that it would. Someone running and jumping on someone wouldn't NECCESARILY make it easier to "touch" the person; to "grab" which is how it is labeled in the PHB. But it seems as though the "charge" bonus would be more aptly carried over to the opposed grapple check. This is, however, the "melee attack at the end of a charge", so I am unsure.

From the srd:

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack.

I would rule that you cannot "charge to grapple." A charge is a special full-round action that ends in a melee attack. Not "double move and perform a standard action." So no +2. Indeed, if the monk is a double-move away, he can't grapple at all.

Edit: Actually, I change my mind. Looking over the SRD further, I suppose a grapple is no different from a Disarm or Sunder attempt, which can be replaced for a melee attack. Since nothing in the Charge description precludes those moves, it wouldn't preclude the charge to grapple option either. You wouldn't get any successive grapple attempts from iterative attacks if the first one failed, but you could make a single grapple attempt at the end of a charge, and yes, at a +2 to the touch attack.

b) +2 from his Dex from Weapon Finesse? It is a touch attack, and after scanning the PHB, it appears that I would receive that bonus. I mean, keeping a DEX bonus for the purposes of just "touching" someone makes sense, right?

As Patryn points out, Weapon Finesse doesn't just add your dex bonus to your attack. It allows you to replace your strength bonus with your dex bonus for a light weapon or specially noted one-handed weapon. Since an unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, you can indeed make use of Weapon Finesse if your dex is greater than your strength, for purposes of the touch attack to initiate a grapple.

 

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Tsk tsk Jayaint, you could have just asked me! : )

Now, my initial reaction was no to the charge bonus, the reason being that the charges says you make a melee attack, and a grapple is a melee touch attack. However, charging (and grappling!) comes with its own balancing negatives, and it seems a nitpicky detail to rule on. The consensus so far indicates it's at the least an arguably permitted action according to RAW, and momentum adding to the force of a grapple makes sense from a logical standpoint. So regardless of what else happens in this thread, you can grapple on a charge. Note however that this *only* applies to the initial grapple check, while you suffer the -2 AC penalty for the entire round.

However. Grappling itself is a lot more than dextrous weaving and finding the opening in the opponent's defenses. A lot of grappling comes down to how strong a grip you have on the other person. And Unarmed Strike is *not* grappling. In my campaign, unless I clearly state otherwise, you can pretty much assume that strength checks are strength checks. And grapple is Str+BAB. So, sorry but you cannot use dex for grapple checks. However, while grappling, if you attack him using unarmed strikes, that *does* get the Weapon Finesse benefit.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

However. Grappling itself is a lot more than dextrous weaving and finding the opening in the opponent's defenses. A lot of grappling comes down to how strong a grip you have on the other person. And Unarmed Strike is *not* grappling. In my campaign, unless I clearly state otherwise, you can pretty much assume that strength checks are strength checks. And grapple is Str+BAB. So, sorry but you cannot use dex for grapple checks. However, while grappling, if you attack him using unarmed strikes, that *does* get the Weapon Finesse benefit.

Note that he was asking about the Weapon Finesse feat in regards to the touch attack that precedes the grapple check, not the grapple check itself.

 

[IndyPendant]

Ah yes, good point, Pendragon. Still an arguable thing, but I would rule then that the initial touch attack would get the weapon finesse bonus. 'Sides, it's flashy and cool, too...: )

 

[jayaint]

Indy,

I *did* link to this from our OOC thread??!!

There is no way that I would try to weasel my way into a Dex-based grapple check... not yet, anyways... LOL Just the initial attacks.

Here's hoping that +4 to grapple checks can overcome a half orc's inherent Str bonus.