D&D (2024) Monk Playtest

Patient Defense and Step of the Wind combined are not as good as the Rogue's Cunning Action. I realized after the fact that I said nothing about Unarmored Defense. There is a strong MAD in the monk, much more than the Barbarian having Unarmored Defense on Constitution. The monk's AC is mediocre. Not terrible but not plate armor. I think a lot of the problem players find is that they run out of Ki just stunning because with many sub-classes it is their only truly effective combat ability. WoTC seems afraid of OPing the monk with a sub-class that actually improves the monks effectiveness by taking it.

I disagree. Monk and Barbarian are equally mad. And the barbarian unarmored defense is rather a ribbon feature, as usually the barbarian can't afford higher than 14 dex. So the barbarian can as well use scale mail pr half plate for most of its career and not use unarmored defense at all.

Also, with bonusactionfree offhand attacks, patient drfense suddenly becomes very good. It is just not as good as cunning action which does not allow for bonus action dodge, because it is just too big of a damage loss to be considered useful. And when it seems useful, just disengaging is usually the better option.
 

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Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry? Still a bonus action?
 

shadowoflameth

Adventurer
The Flurry may need to change with new rules on dual wielding. The Barbarian is MAD as well, but Constitution adds both HP and AC. I played a 5e barbarian to 20th level and AC was never an issue. HP was so high and resisting many attacks helped so much it worked even at the lower levels.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry? Still a bonus action?
Free action once per turn at the cost of 1 ki? I'm not sure removing the action cost makes it ''omg too OP!!!''.

I'd even go farter and make it like the Hunter's Horde Breaker, 1 free (no action, no ki) attack against a different target, like in 4e. So the monk's routine would be: Main attack, second attack from martial arts, third attack against another target within range (if possible).
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry? Still a bonus action?
LIGHT [WEAPON PROPERTY]
When you take the Attack Action on your turn
and attack with a Light weapon in one hand, you
can make one extra attack as part of the same
Action. That extra attack must be made with a
different Light weapon
in the other hand, and
you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra
attack’s damage. You can make this extra attack
only once on each of your turns.
For example, if you take the Attack Action on
your turn and have a Shortsword in one hand
and a Dagger in the other—each of which has the
Light property—you can make one attack with
each weapon, but you don’t add your Strength or
Dexterity Modifier to the damage roll of the
second weapon.

UNARMED STRIKE
An Unarmed Strike is a melee attack that
involves you using your body to damage,
grapple, or shove a target within your Reach.
Your bonus to hit with an Unarmed Strike
equals your Strength modifier plus your
Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, your Unarmed Strike
causes one of the following effects of your
choice:
Damage. The target takes Bludgeoning Damage
equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.
Grapple. The target is Grappled, and the
grapple’s escape DC equals 8 + your Strength
modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This
grapple is possible only if the target is no more
than one Size larger than you and if you have a
hand free to grab the target.
Shove. You either push the target 5 feet away or
knock the target Prone. This shove is possible
only if the target is no more than one Size
larger than you.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While you are Grappled, you experience the
following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change.
Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on
Attack Rolls against any target other than the
grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you,
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition
while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or
more Sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a
Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the
grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your
turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a
success. The Condition also ends if the
grappler is Incapacitated or if something
moves you outside the grapple’s range without
using your Speed.
The RAW is currently 100% "ask your gm" on if an empty hand counts as a light weapon or if a second empty hand qualifies as a "different light weapon", that's very bad & should be cleared up one way or another by the RAW somewhere. With that said the monk traditionally has light weapons that count as monk weapons. With the current bonkers before or after each attack wording it doesn't matter (but should be fixed & designed accordingly).


With the new grapple & shove rules though flurry is pretty awesome with the current rules & should be treated accordingly in whatever the warrior group monk winds up looking like overall. Personally as a GM I'd like to see flurry modify an attack rather than consume a bunch of time from one player making two more attacks.
 

Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry? Still a bonus action?
Reaction? Spend a ki point to make 2 OA's? Not something you would do very often but feels very martial arts, and it would give the monk an interesting front line role...
 


Changes that I would implement for the monk if a player at my table selected the class:
  • If you are unarmed, your martial arts die increases by one step.
  • Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind do not require ki points, just your bonus action.
  • Stunning Strike is replaced by something else. I'm not sure what. Probably levels of exhaustion.
I've had one player play a monk. He was reasonably effective. But by Level 6 he was bored with the class -- he felt like he was doing the same thing every turn.
 

Clint_L

Legend
I'm currently playing a Mercy monk, and I have to say that it is a massive improvement to the class. I've got options that can allow me to make valuable contributions other than just trying to stun the enemy spellcaster. If a party member is down, I can punch them back to consciousness. I can apply the poisoned condition with no saving throw to almost any opponent - that is really clutch against a tough melee combatant, so now I'm not just useful against the spellcaster in the back. I can even remove pesky conditions from team mates.

Mercy monk feels OP compared to other monk subclasses, but not compared to any other class. I think WotC kind of nailed it with this most recent subclass, and that is a good sign for OneD&D monks.

Edit: damage is still a bit too low. I really think unarmed combat should be viable for monks right from Level 1. And needs to be abetted by more magic items that will benefit monks the same way other melee combatants get tons of different magic weapon options.
 

The Flurry may need to change with new rules on dual wielding. The Barbarian is MAD as well, but Constitution adds both HP and AC. I played a 5e barbarian to 20th level and AC was never an issue. HP was so high and resisting many attacks helped so much it worked even at the lower levels.

This is not what I meant: AC is not an issue. Con is always useful for the barbarian. But the barbarian can usually get to at least the same AC by just using medium armor.
So the barbarian needs str and dex and con and a bit of wisdom to resist mind control is not bad either.

So monk and barbarian are in similar spots in their MADness.
 

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