Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[Hussar]

And, keep in mind, that the monk is doing obscene damage with his bare hands. He doesn't need to burn feats or items to increase his damage, it happens as a class ability. What would it cost for a human fighter to keep up with the monk's base damage?

 

[FireLance]

And, keep in mind, that the monk is doing obscene damage with his bare hands. He doesn't need to burn feats or items to increase his damage, it happens as a class ability. What would it cost for a human fighter to keep up with the monk's base damage?

Actually, not much, if he uses a two-handed weapon, as the fighter gets an edge equal to half his Strength bonus. Assuming the 20th-level fighter above uses a greatsword, he deals 2d6+12 damage before other bonuses. The 20th-level monk deals 2d10+5 damage before other bonuses, so the fighter can still out-damage the monk on a per blow basis.

 

[Klaus]

People get too hung up on the Amulet of Mighty Fists, when a monk's unarmed strike are "treated both as manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured or natural weapons *such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." (PHB, page 41).

As written, this clearly allows the monk to get his unarmed strike enchanted just like a weapon (much in the same way a warforged can get his composite plating enchanted as if it were armor).

This means it's actually *cheaper* for a monk to get his unarmed strike enchanted, since he saves on the cost of the masterwork weapon. FEAR the monk with a disruption unarmed strike!

 

[Hussar]

Another thing to remember, is that the monk didn't pay for a magic suit of armor and a magic shield. True, he's prolly got a set of bracers of armor and the like, but, he's not out the money for those items either.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Well, some quick and dirty numbers for 10th level. Assume standard wealth value of 49,000 gp, of which about half is spent on offensive equipment.

Let's say the 10th-level monk has the following:

1. Strength 18 (starting Strength 14 and +4 girdle of giant strength: 16,000 gp)
2. +1 enhancement bonus from +1 amulet of mighty fists: 6,000 gp

Are you including a Wisdom-boosting item? That takes up the same slot as the mighty fists.

His full attack with flurry of blows is +12/+12/+7

Let's say the 10th-level fighter has the following:

1. Strength 22 (starting Strength 16, 2 ability increases and +4 girdle of giant strength: 16,000 gp)
2. Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus
4. +2 weapon: 8,000 gp

His full attack is +20/+15

A quick survey of the CR 10 creatures in the SRD gave me the following:

AC 28: Formian Myrmarch
AC 26: Adult White Dragon
AC 24: Juvenile Red Dragon, Gargantuan Monstrous Scorpion
AC 23: Fire Giant
AC 22: Bebilith, Clay Golem
AC 21: 11-Headed hydra
AC 18: Noble Salamander
AC 11: Colossal Animated Object

The last one here is the outlier.

As expected, the monk fares comparatively poorly against the high-AC creatures such as the Formian Myrmarch and the Adult White Dragon, getting 0.55 hits per round of flurrying against the fighter's 1.05 hits per found of full attack against the Formian Myrmarch (about 52%) and 0.8 hits per round to the fighter's 1.25 hits per round against the Adult White Dragon (64%).

Against the middle range of AC between 24 and 21, the monk starts to catch up. He gets 1.1 hits per round against the fighter's 1.45 against AC 24 (about 76%) and 1.55 hits per round against the fighter's 1.7 against AC 21 (about 91%).

Against creatures like the Noble Salamander and the Colossal Animated Object, the monk actually gets in more hits on average, 2 hits per round against the fighter's 1.85 against the Noble Salamander (about 108%) and 2.75 hits per round against the fighter's 1.9 against the Colossal Animated Object (about 145%).

If we're not counting the outlier here, the monk is nearly always weaker. Not entirely useless, as you pointed out, but clearly inferior.

After all, he still has other abilities to compensate.

Some of which people still complain about, due to their inflexibility. (It's kind of weird - hardly anyone ever complains about the barbarian's abilities, or even the D20 Modern Martial Artist's abilities, even though you don't get to choose them, either. I think WotC chose the monk's abilities poorly, even if they're not all weak.) Also, what do these abilities do? Nothing to support a martial artist, which is one reason I think the class should be split.

People get too hung up on the Amulet of Mighty Fists, when a monk's unarmed strike are "treated both as manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured or natural weapons *such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." (PHB, page 41).

At what cost? Headbutt, two fists, two elbows, two knees, two feet, etc. I don't know about you, but I don't want to spend nine days sitting still while a druid enhances me as a +3 weapon.

Another thing to remember, is that the monk didn't pay for a magic suit of armor and a magic shield. True, he's prolly got a set of bracers of armor and the like, but, he's not out the money for those items either.

The monk is getting less value out of these items. Bracers of Armor +4 costs 16,000 gp and give you +4 AC. Full plate +3 costs 10,500 gp or thereabout and gives you +11 AC.

 

[Mad Mac]

The Monk's unarmed strike has always been treated as a single weapon. Feel free to come up with crazy houserules to nerf the monk, but it's no use trying to use them as a debating point.

As far as what the monks abilities do with the exception of the odd ability like tongue of the Sun and Moon, the monks abilities generally serve to enhance his mobility and defense. Nothing wrong with that, in my book, it's just that the monk needs a bit more offense in his pocket in order to capitalize on being Mr. Survival Man. And I think it's a good think the class has those abilities.

If you just want to play a fighter who uses his bare hands, then I agree, you're better off making a fighter feat chain. A new class should have distinct abilities and feel, which the monks pulls off quite well. It's just a little weak, imo.

 

[TheLe]

How are monks as party leaders?

`Le

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The Monk's unarmed strike has always been treated as a single weapon. Feel free to come up with crazy houserules to nerf the monk, but it's no use trying to use them as a debating point.

I didn't say anything about house rules. The rules are not clear about this. They say you can enhance your natural weapons as manufactured weapons, without clear numbers being stated anywhere. The Amulet of Mighty Fists is also expensive, and that's the only cost we're given in the core rules.

As far as what the monks abilities do with the exception of the odd ability like tongue of the Sun and Moon, the monks abilities generally serve to enhance his mobility and defense. Nothing wrong with that, in my book, it's just that the monk needs a bit more offense in his pocket in order to capitalize on being Mr. Survival Man. And I think it's a good think the class has those abilities.

No, I disagree with you on this. Let's look at the abilities that don't boost AC or damage.

(Improved) Evasion: improves defenses
Increased Speed: improves mobility
Still Mind: improves saves
Slow Fall: outlier?
Purity of Body: immune to disease
Wholeness of Body: healing
Abundant Step: dimension door (sort of improves mobility)
Diamond Body: immunity to poinson
Diamond Soul: SR
Quivering Palm: death dealing, once per week
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: speak any language
Empty Body: going ethereal
Perfect Self: changes your type and gives nearly useless DR

Of these twelve abilities, seven don't increase your mobility or defenses. That's less than half. While being immune to poison is extremely useful, I'd like the ability to decide for myself if that's what I want.

If you just want to play a fighter who uses his bare hands, then I agree, you're better off making a fighter feat chain. A new class should have distinct abilities and feel, which the monks pulls off quite well. It's just a little weak, imo.

You would need a new feat chain. I think you could do a non-ki/non-FX martial artist class, however. Look at the D20 Modern version for inspiration. It doesn't just boost your unarmed damage.

 

[doghead]

I like the monk. I am currently playing two. I like the fact they can be played pretty much straight off the page; the ki strike means you don't even need magical weapons.

One of the characters is a fish out of water 'easterner' in a european style setting. Given that option, the monk pretty much works as is, although the low AC and attack bonuses is a bit of a pain. He carries just a staff and a bag with some personal items. I really like being able to ditch all the clutter of armour, weapons and items (with the whole matrix of bonuses that go with them) that go with a normal character.

The other is a monk who is not really a monk - the concept was a pit fighter slave. Initially he was a straight monk mechanically, but the whole oriental weapons thing got on my wick. So we changed the 'monk' weapons to similar ones like daggers (sia) and darts (shuriken), and explained the mystical abilities like ki through devotion to Kossuth.

I would play more monks if it were not for the raft of eastern elements that go with it. In most settings they just don't make sense.

thotd

 

[Mad Mac]

Slow Fall is mobility. Doesn't come up much, but definately mobility.

Dimension Door is pure mobility.

Eathereal jaunt is mobility and defense. Walking through walls is mobility. So is walking straight up. And it's based off move speed, so the monk has a built in advantage.

Healing isn't strictly defense, but it's nice to have.

DR magic isn't that bad. Most NPCS will have magic weapons, true, but many monsters using natural weapons won't auto-penetrate. But this is obviously defense.

That just leaves Quivering Palm, Tongue of Sun and Moon, and that whole "Be buff in your old age" thing as outliers, which is fine.