Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[Victim]

Just as a question though, at 10th level, the monk is 3 BAB behind the fighter. Three points? Who cares? It's not like the monk is attacking as a wizard. The difference between the progressions is not so large that it makes such a huge difference. The only time the monk is missing a lot is against very high AC opponents. Fair enough. There should be at least one thing the fighter does better than the monk.

At 10th level, the wizard has +5 Bab. He's only 2 behind the monk. 2 points? Who cares?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What's the point of being the one still standing if you cannot be valuable for the party?

The "last man standing" argument against monks simply doesn't hold water.

Unless you're comparing the monk to a PC with healing or transport spells, he's no more "useless" to a fallen party than any other.

Any PC can at least stabilize wounds and go for help- monks more quickly than most.

He's got a moderate amount of skill points, and if he so chose, could burn many of them in Heal as a cross-class skill...making him a (potentially) decent first aid man.

And if they have to go through hostile territory to get help, not only do they have high ACs and speed, they also have Diplomacy as a class skill.

 

[jbuck]

In your case of the monk vs fighter/barbarian monk alwoys looses, argument i can always get around the fact that i might only hit the fighter on a roll of 15+. I ask you this, what the **** does it matter if you only hit the fighter on a 15+ if the fighter is only hitting you on a natural 20?

i had one point where i was the only one in the party left standing when my party was fighting a balor at 19th level, the only reason that no-one died was that i could keep standing in front of the balor dancing the can-can slowly killing it and distracting it from the rest of the party so it couldent kill them off

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Monks do decent damage and make perfect Polish Mine Detectors.

At least that's what's happening in my camp.

The other thing to remember - Grapple. It's not that hard to buff grappling and, if the monk grapples the fighter, the fighter dies. Gotta lose that nifty two handed weapon to grapple back, then win the grapple to get free. Then you gotta pick up that weapon, which draws an AOO, thus landing you right back in the grapple again.

Nah, the fighter's higher BAB usually gives them the higher grapple bonus, although the monk will (generally) deal more damage while grappling. While the monk grapples, his AC drops and another PCs (perhaps a rogue?) can do terrible things to his flesh. I think this is a "works on paper" argument.

Just as a question though, at 10th level, the monk is 3 BAB behind the fighter. Three points? Who cares? It's not like the monk is attacking as a wizard. The difference between the progressions is not so large that it makes such a huge difference. The only time the monk is missing a lot is against very high AC opponents. Fair enough. There should be at least one thing the fighter does better than the monk.

Three points of BAB, more points on enhancement bonuses, perhaps more points because of MAD, etc.

 

[Stalker0]

Three points of BAB, more points on enhancement bonuses, perhaps more points because of MAD, etc.

Perhaps a few more points because of weapon focus and greater weapon focus (monks don't have a lot of feats). But yeah, in general its not just the BAB, its the lack of magic bonuses, lower strength, etc. Most monks I've seen hit about 5 less than an equivalent level fighter.

 

[Klaus]

Thing is, if you're trying to make a front-line monk, you'll want Strength, not Wisdom (a Wisdom 12 already gives you as much protection as a suit of padded armor, Wisodm 14 matches leather, putting you on par with a rogue). Since you're favoring Strength, you'll want Improved Grapple (very few Fighters take this and its prerequisite, Imprived Unarmed Strike), offsetting the BAB difference (and possibly overcoming it, allowing even a flurry of grapples). A 1st level fighter with 15 Str has a grapple modifier of +3. A 1st level monk that goes the melee route will have 15 Str and Imp Grapple for a net modifier of +6.

And if you're putting a rogue into the mix, it's just an unfair, 2-on-1 fight. Now put the rogue on the monk's side and you'll see how a monk can contribute.

Does a monk suffer from MAD? Yes, it benefits from higher stats on multiple abilities. Can it be circumvented? Sure can. A melee monk with Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8 works just fine. Make him a half-orc and you're in Str 17, Int 8, Cha 6 territory. This monk will have a grapple modifier of +7 at 1st level. The average fighter will have a touch AC of 11 and a grapple modifier of +3 (+5 if half-orc, too), so our monk will hit with an 8 on a d20 (10 if he flurries) and win a grapple check 70% or the time (55% if the fighter is also a half-orc). The fighter would waste a round or two making grapple checks to draw and use a light weapon, during which the monk can cause up to 4d6+12 points of damage (flurry of grapples for 2 rounds).

 

[Mad Mac]

Uh...so you're saying that if I make an AC 13, 9 HP Monk, with a +3 attack bonus, +1/+1 with flurry, there's no problem, because he could possibly grapple down a single opponent over a couple of rounds?

Most fights don't consist of a single equal level or less fighter type that the monk can tackle in complete safety. Grappling can be a useful tactic, and I definately favor strength with my monks, but that doesn't mean monks are fine and spiffy.

In the end, Monks have a little too much trouble raising their attack bonus, whether it's overspending on the uber-pricey amulet of mighty blows or gimping their AC in favor of offensive stats and items.

Fix that paticular weakness, and I think they'd do all right.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

And if you're putting a rogue into the mix, it's just an unfair, 2-on-1 fight. Now put the rogue on the monk's side and you'll see how a monk can contribute.

PC classes exist as part of a party, not a vacuum. I wasn't picturing a monk vs fighter, but a party vs party, where the monk from one party is able to grapple the other party's fighter. They can do it for a round or two, until a rogue, cleric or whoever comes over and whacks them good. In fact, the only thing that would keep the monk alive is if there's only one NPC to fight (the fighter), who could just as easily be taken down with a single spell from the party's mage.

As for the half-orc monk, congrats. Let's see him live long enough to grapple the fighter with his uber AC score of ... 13.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

, what the **** does it matter if you only hit the fighter on a 15+ if the fighter is only hitting you on a natural 20?

I've never seen a monk with the same AC as a fighter without shelling out GOBS more cash to do so.

 

[Nebulous]

Solutions: because of DnD's high magic light-fighter-screwing mechanics, it might not be possible to fix the monk class. It might be possible to create a martial artist class, however, to free some people from taking a class they don't like large parts of.

Check out the Defender from Midnight 2.0. Fixed all my quibbles i had with the monk. the eastern flavor and supernatural hooplah is stripped away and replaced with raw fighting power and more options. He's just an asskicker with an attitude. Good or Evil.