Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Check out the Defender from Midnight 2.0. Fixed all my quibbles i had with the monk. the eastern flavor and supernatural hooplah is stripped away and replaced with raw fighting power and more options. He's just an asskicker with an attitude. Good or Evil.

Yes, I've seen it and like it, but also realize that Midnight is a low magic setting. It's D20, but not DnD. It kicks arse for many of the same reasons the D20 Modern Martial Artist kicks arse. The Defender is also flexible, giving it something the monk sorely needs. IIRC the Midnight Defender also has a good attack bonus.

I've never seen a monk with the same AC as a fighter without shelling out GOBS more cash to do so.

Or taking some weird PrC.

 

[Nebulous]

This is sorta unrelated, but i also prefer the Midnight 2.0 wildlander to the D&D ranger.

 

[Klaus]

PC classes exist as part of a party, not a vacuum. I wasn't picturing a monk vs fighter, but a party vs party, where the monk from one party is able to grapple the other party's fighter. They can do it for a round or two, until a rogue, cleric or whoever comes over and whacks them good. In fact, the only thing that would keep the monk alive is if there's only one NPC to fight (the fighter), who could just as easily be taken down with a single spell from the party's mage.

As for the half-orc monk, congrats. Let's see him live long enough to grapple the fighter with his uber AC score of ... 13.

Why let the fighter attack, when you can Hide, attack from surprise and incapacitate the fighter? Stealth is a part of the monk's repertoire, and not using it would be like a rogue not using his sneak attack. One-on-one, arena style, the Fighter *will* win.

 

[CF]

Why let the fighter attack, when you can Hide, attack from surprise and incapacitate the fighter? Stealth is a part of the monk's repertoire, and not using it would be like a rogue not using his sneak attack. One-on-one, arena style, the Fighter *will* win.

Try to incapacitate the fighter, you mean. His stunning fist's DC is really poor and the save is based on Fortitude (the good save of the fighter). The grapple is a somewhat dash manouver if the fighter is in a party.

Also, stealth is really a good weapon for the monk (I like stealth no matter what class I'm taking). But it's not as decisive for him as the sneak attack is for the rogue. Stealth is as good to the monk as it is for the rogue, or the ranger.

My guess is that the monk could really fare the trip and spring attack road to help the party. But it doesn't make him the optimal 5th member of the party either. Maybe the 6th.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Why let the fighter attack, when you can Hide, attack from surprise and incapacitate the fighter? Stealth is a part of the monk's repertoire, and not using it would be like a rogue not using his sneak attack. One-on-one, arena style, the Fighter *will* win.

Well, if the fighter is going off by himself, maybe he deserves to have that happen to him. The monk beat him by clever strategy, but if he's a PC, the monk is not going to get to do this all the time. (A rogue who gets some decent high DC knockout injury poison and stalks NPCs with a blowgun isn't going to be successful all the time either. They'll probably get killed, or at least annoy the other PCs.)

The strategy also falls apart with a few levels ... the fighter will soon have a Grapple check that either matches or nearly matches what the monk has, even though I'm assuming the fighter isn't going to take Improved Grapple.

A fighter has powerful abilities that work "most of the time". The monk's "stealthy grapple" strategy is not going to work most of the time.

The fighter will probably win an arena style battle. He could get unlucky, after all. (Rolling a "one" when he got hit by Stunning Fist? Ow!)

 

[Mad Mac]

Right. The "Stealthy Grappler" routine isn't a bad strategy, but it's not something that will consistantly help the party.

Whereas a joke AC is going to be a serious detriment 90% of the time for a melee combatent like the monk. If you have an AC of 13, you aren't just worried about Fighters hitting you, you're constantly a knife edge away from getting fragged by goblins.

Now, of course, you could go the opposite route. Play an Elf Monk with a stat array of St 12 Dex 17 Con 11 In 10 Wis 14 Cha 8. Congratulations. Now you have a starting AC of 15. You also can't hit the broad side of a barn, grapple, or do any appreciable damage.

There's a number of possible monk builds, some better than others. But all the ones I've seen end up fairly weak in the end. I don't think Monks need some monster buff. But they could use a little help.

 

[Victim]

Thing is, if you're trying to make a front-line monk, you'll want Strength, not Wisdom (a Wisdom 12 already gives you as much protection as a suit of padded armor, Wisodm 14 matches leather, putting you on par with a rogue).

Yeah, and in a few levels the rogue will have a Mithril Chain Shirt. Usually by the end of first level, the rogue can have masterwork studded or a mw chain shirt. For the same price as the mithril armor, the monk can get a +1 armor bonus. The fighter will be able to get armor spikes later, and just autohit the monk even with the -4.

It's one thing to have a crap AC at first level, even if it is problematic. But the monk will pretty much be stuck with his leather AC for a long time.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'll disagree- I design my monks with Str as the secondary or tertiary stat- and Dex is always primary.

Thus, my monks' ACs are generally in the top 1/3rd of the party.

And even though this build sacrifices alpha strike capability in melee, Dex based monks are above average ranged combatants.

My current Monk's first (OK...only) magic item is a Quiver of Ehlonna. With a full load of Javelins and Crossbow bolts, he's a pretty nice piece of mobile artillery.

It also means that once my Monk gets Combat Reflexes, his AoOs will go through the roof.

 

[The_Gneech]

'cept you don't threaten with a ranged weapon...

-TG

 

[Mad Mac]

There's advantages to focusing on Dex with a monk, especially if you're also an elf. (Free Longbow Proff, yay!) Ranged attacks are one, and your AC is obviously going to be better, though still probably not very good until high levels.

On the other hand, Dex monks can forget about tripping and grappling, and their melee damage is pretty negligible. It's not like Monks have any paticular affinity with ranged weapons, either. You're stuck with crossbows and short ranged throwing weapons unless you're an elf, multiclass, or blow extra feats, and you don't get bonus feats, sneak attack, good BaB, bonus damage, skirmish damage....just the ability to run fast and throw stuff at people. You're better off being a Scout, really.

Still, Dex route has it's advantages. I've gone both ways with monks, and I find strength monks more satisfying to play.