Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[Mad Mac]

Ranger is a very good counter example. I think it's the sheer number of special abilities that make people uneasy with Monks being better fighters. Really though, a lot of those abilities are just geared towards making unarmed/unarmored combat viable. I mean, if we break it down...

Unarmed Damage, Wis Bonus to AC, Class bonus to AC, Unarmed Damage Reduction. These don't make the monk stronger than other class, it's just makes their fighting style not completely suicidal.

Flurry of Blows. Designed to offset the lower BaB. It's a pretty cool idea, but the Monk's trouble with building up a decent attack bonus hampers it. Obviously you can't have Flurry and Full BAB, though. Flurry also has the advantage of channeling the monk towards certain weapons. If they had full BAB, there's no reason not to start swinging a greatsword. Main reason I'd rather make it easier to enchant unarmed strikes than go the Full BaB route.

Actual Special abilities:

Evasion/Improved Evasion
+2 Bonus vs Enchantment Spells.
3 bonus Feats
Enhanced Movement
Slow Fall
Immune to Disease (sorta)
Immune to Poison
Heal self 2HP/level 1/day
Spell Resistance
Dimension Door 1/day
Save or Die 1/week (with other restrictions)
Talk to Anything
Limited Eathereal Jaunt
DR 10/magic
Be a Buff Old Geezer

Ranger:

+22 Dam divided up against favored enemies
3 Bonus Combat Feats
Track
Endurance
Animal Diplomacy
Animal Companion
Woodland Stride
Swift Tracker
Evasion
Camoflauge
Hide in Plain Sight
Spellcasting up to 4th level.

Hard to say. Both classes have great abilities, and filler abilities. Lets try Paladin:

Detect Evil at Will
Smite Evil 5/day
Divine Grace
Lay on Hands
Aura of Courage
Divine Health
Turn Undead
Special Mount
Remove Disease
Spellcasting up to 4th level.


I'd be hard pressed to say the Monk's special abilities are signifigantly better, honestly. Though they do include some very unique advantages.

 

[Thanee]

PC classes exist as part of a party, not a vacuum. I wasn't picturing a monk vs fighter, but a party vs party, ...

As for the half-orc monk, congrats. Let's see him live long enough to grapple the fighter with his uber AC score of ... 13.

Don't neglect Mage Armor.

Not that I think monks are great at anything (they are moderately good at a few things, though; similar to the bard on that behalf)... but when the party plays together, they can at least be useful scouts, and with their Stunning Fist, they make decent team-ups with rogues, who also are fairly mobile usually.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Aus_Snow]

Oh, I also dislike the name 'Monk' for this class. It's innapropriate, and mucks with the verisimilitude.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Another thing to remember is how easy it is to buff monk AC's with spells. Mage Armor that AC 13 monk and now he's AC 17 - pretty good for the level. Combine with a Shield of Faith and now he's into the early 20's. A pair of first level spells that most parties should have, and the monk can tank with the best of them. Sure, Shield of Faith helps the fighter too, but, mage armor doesn't. At 1 hour/level, you can pretty much guarantee it for the monk. Put Shield of Faith into a wand or potions and you can use it in every fight.

Other classes don't have to ask for buffing like that. Anyone can use a Potion of Shield of Faith, so that's a wash. And finally, if you multiclass with a spellcaster, you're nerfing your already low BAB.

But, with Flurry, the monk is doing better than the fighter most of the time.

How is having an attack bonus 3 points lower better odds?

I think I've seen people try to prove more attacks at lower numbers give you better odds, but it's less fun and I've never seen it proven in play.

 

[ZeroGlobal2003]

While I like the Monk, I agree with many that it really belongs in OA, flavorwise- especially since the OA modification of it also does away with the multiclass restriction and the expanded monk weapon list.

I like fast movement, AC improvements, FoB, deflecting arrows & so forth, but except for the dimension walking and acrobatic falling abilities, I don't care much for their high level abilities.

What I dislike so much is that the class only models one archetype of the unarmed/light combatants- the aforemention Shaolin master type. Pankration wrestlers? Capoirists? Thai Kickboxers? Savatte masters? Judo practitioners? None of them (and so many more) are truly represented by the class.

Were I redesigning the class, I'd:

1) Give the class a more concept neutral name, like Unarmed Warrior, or if I wanted extra flavor, Master of the Empty Hand (or some such). After all, the concept of unarmed combat isn't neccessarily linked to a monastic lifestyle.

2) Broaden the way martial arts work a little. Since some martial arts are aggressive, there would be a high-damage option. A martial art that depends more on throws and holds wouldn't see a standard damage increase, but would instead get BAB bonuses for such maneuvers and enhancement to non-lethal damage. To reflect this, a PC would choose a School of unarmed combat at 1st level, which would include associated feat selections and special abilities

Mechanically, a School would probably be a cafeteria of offerings, with successive choices based on previous decisions... For example, it would be very difficult for a PC who took a "reactive" School to take certain "aggressive" abilities, and vice versa.

3) Monk weapon lists would vary from School to School as well. After all, the weapons used in Karate differ from those of Escrima (short staves) or Capoira (in extreme cases, they can fight with or even in manacles) and so forth.

Arranging these fighting schools like Cleric Domains would be an interesting idea... basically you pick one, gain a granted power, and then a power every X levels. It would allow new schools to be invented on the fly. Monte Cook did something like this ain AU with his Totem Warriors, each Totem animal is a package of abilities, just choose your totem.

Zero

 

[Stalker0]

How is having an attack bonus 3 points lower better odds?

I think I've seen people try to prove more attacks at lower numbers give you better odds, but it's less fun and I've never seen it proven in play.

I ran the math a while ago, against most typical ACs a party will face the monks extra attacks don't hold up against a better attack bonus. Now against very crappy mooks, summoned creatures, etc that have very low ACs, the monk can get it done. But against creatures that "matter", the monk is normally doing worse.

I think I agree with the assessement a few points ago, the monk is normally sacrificing offense or defense to such an extreme that he can't do either. You can have a pretty nice AC, but you'll never hit. You can hit pretty well, but your a big bloody punching bag.

I guess its a question of how much is enough...the monk gets a whole bunch of other benefits besides his fighting, so how close to a fighter should he become before its too good?

I also think that while flurry is a unique and interesting idea, it compounds the problem. The rogue is another example of a creature that has high offense and low defense. The difference is that the rogue can deliver his offense with a single attack. The rogue can move into flanking and deliver a powerful sneak attack. He can even combine it with spring attack. He can also add sneak attack damage through ranged weapons. The monk has to deliver full round actions to really add to combat, which clashes with his high mobility.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've played a Monk/Psywar up to 9th level and he was extremely effective. He was human and his human 1st level feat was spent on Martial Weapon(Glaive), and it worked like a dream for him. Apropos earlier conversations he was, indeed, a high strength monk with Improved Grapple rather than stunning fist, and for his first four levels he completely outshone the fighters in grappling stakes.

Once he got some PsyWar under his belt, Inertial Armour was a great long-term buff and Expansion increased his grappling potential (and reach with glaive + combat reflexes) even more. The fact that PsyWars use Wis as their key casting attribute helps too.

I've certainly had great fun with that combination.

Cheers

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Arranging these fighting schools like Cleric Domains would be an interesting idea... basically you pick one, gain a granted power, and then a power every X levels. It would allow new schools to be invented on the fly.

Yep. Its really flexible and broadens the scope of the class.

 

[Hussar]

Isn't it interesting though when you mention rangers. Rangers using two weapons are attacking at -2 for all their attacks. Effectively, for most levels, they attack pretty much the same as monks. Yet, I don't see endless complaints about how bad ranger attacks are.

Let's go back to our 11th level monk again. The ranger has attacks of 9/9/4/4/1/1 compared to the monks 8/8/8/3. Yup, the ranger's got lots more attacks, but, mostly at significantly lower bonuses. If the monk's extra attacks don't make him stand up to the fighter, then the ranger must really suck.

The math is pretty simple. 11/6/1 is NOT as good as 8/8/8/3. The only time it is, is against VERY high AC opponents, in which case, the fighter is the only one hitting anyway.

Unless, of course, the monk is smart enough to start tripping and thus getting his 12/12/12/7 attack routine at the prone target.

Remember, if the fighter goes for improved trip, he has to burn 13 points in intelligence. A 25 point buy gives you three 14's an 11 and two tens. Stick a 13 in int and suddenly either your con or your dex blows. Meanwhile, the monk takes a 14 str, Dex and Wis and effectively has an 18 dex for AC bonus.

 

[Felon]

Y'know, downing a 50 gp potion of mage armor once an hour really doesn't represent that big a sink. In practice, that's what monks I play with do.

Flurry of blows starts out as being basically the same as 2WF. At 5th and 9th it becomes a better deal, but not as good as Improved 2WF. At 11th level, the second extra attack kicks in. That's actually pretty nasty, and better than I2WF, and probably better than G2WF.

I don't like the mediocre BAB for someone who's clearly intended to be a skilled warrior, but I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with it having a 1/1 BAB and all good saves.