Monk?

[Dandu]

I hope you don't mind what I am about to say, and I have no doubt you were effective in your group, but the build just isn't very good. +4 BAB at level 8, for example, is a huge dent in offensive power. An AC of 23 (or 27) sounds good, but the list of CR 8 monsters in core contains a lot of opponents who have a decent chance of hitting you anyways, and you don't have the HP to sit there and take it.

Don't mean to rain on your parade.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

I love the concept of the monk, but I have yet to be in a group where someone plays a monk as a monk.

The one guy in our group who frequently plays them, they are not monastic the least bit, in fact while their alignment says "lawful good/neutral" they come off chaotic at times...such as torturing an NPC or setting a village on fire, both happened.

I love the monk though, having taken martial arts myself for a stretch of time I really feel I can grasp a bit of the mentality, like if a priest was to play a paladin, granted I did not have as much devotion as a REAL monk would have, I had more than the player does.

Other than his issues the monk is actually fairly strong, focusing more as the 'striker' than the 'tank'
Even though the Monk has a high armor class, he tends to have less hit points then say...the barbarian? the paladin?
But the higher armor class allows him to get in quick and get out, striking hard, moving fast (fast movement forthewin) and having the skills to move THROUGH enemies.
The only problem they have is that with a lack of armor comes a lack of cool armor things, suck as fortification.
The real question comes in as "how much damage would brass knuckles do?"
Someone should help me out here, it would save a lot of arguments at my table. I was thinking 1d4 leathal, crit x2

 

[Dandu]

Someone should help me out here, it would save a lot of arguments at my table. I was thinking 1d4 leathal, crit x2

I know of no official rules, but I would like to say that it does seem appropriate.

Other than his issues the monk is actually fairly strong, focusing more as the 'striker' than the 'tank'

That is a common tactic for people who play monks as WotC describes them as performing as such on the battlefield. Of course WotC also thinks of clerics as healers, wizards as blasters, fighters as leaders, and rogues as trapfinders...

Look, the main problem with striking (out of probably a few) is that monsters with DR require one good, solid blow to take out (ie, with a two handed sword and some Power Attacking) since hitting something for 2d6+4 damage at, say, level 10 will barely scratch, say, a Clay Golem.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I hope you don't mind what I am about to say...

I don't mind. You (or anyone else) can theorize about how good/effective/whatever this "build" is, but I know from actually playing the game that she kicked all kinds of @$$.

She had a good enough AC to not get hit very often, and having up to 5 false life spells per day at her disposal did a lot to keep what little did manage to hit from hurting as much. She sometimes missed her attack rolls, of course, but not so often that I noticed it; she almost always got a flanking bonus, and if something was simply too well-armored, then it became a prime candidate for shocking grasp (especially if that armor was metal). The East Wind Style feat allows you to trade a Stunning Fist for a shocking grasp, as I recall, so she never ran out of them.

EDIT: I should also mention that she often used her ranseur and the attack of opportunity provoked by opponents closing to melee with her to disarm those opponents. Of course, it didn't always work, but when it didn't, her AC was still very good and she had the mobility to slip away and set up for it again. And when it did work, it was a thing of beauty.

There were actually lots of little tricks like that she used that made her much more effective than she may look on paper. If there was difficult terrain around (and there frequently was), she would often use Jump, Tumble, and her superior speed to hit an enemy and then move away to someplace it couldn't hit her back, for example. If an opponent was vulnerable to grappling, she'd grapple. And so on.

Could someone build a more combat-effective monk? I'm sure they could; that wasn't my goal. But as I said, in actual play, this character was head and shoulders above anyone else in the group -- not only in combat, but also out of it. Whether that was due to the particular campaign, extraordinarily lucky rolls, or some other reason I don't know, but I do know that I'd quite happily play her again in almost anyone's campaign.

 

[Dandu]

I don't mind. You (or anyone else) can theorize about how good/effective/whatever this "build" is, but I know from actually playing the game that she kicked all kinds of @$$.

I don't doubt it worked in the game. It's just...

Do you play Magic: the Gathering, another WotC product? There's a world of difference between casual Magic and professional Magic, the kind you see in tournaments. There are tons of fun Magic decks you can make with the cards. I own 14 Magic decks, and they're all pretty entertaining.

But most Magic cards suck. Most are strictly inferior to other cards that have been printed. Compare Shock to Lightning Bolt, for example. And then there's cards that are just bad...

So while most Magic decks will provide hours of enjoyment at home, the vast, vast majority will not meet the cut for competitive play. Of the 14 decks I have, I doubt very much if one of them would be good in a tournament. And I've spend a decent amount of time optimizing them...

A lot of D&D builds are like that. If you're playing in a casual game, you could make a Monk/Rogue/Fighter/Paladin/Duelist and it would probably work just fine. The DM won't throw out hard encounters, and cater to your build. But if you take one and put it up against the criteria established by the book (CR appropriate encounters) you start to see performance issues. Large performance issues.

As a side note, it's often said in Magic drafts that one of the worst things that can happen to a player is not to lose, but to win with a bad deck build, because then he'll think his strategy is good...

 

[Vegepygmy]

Do you play Magic: the Gathering, another WotC product?

I haven't played Magic since it first came out, for exactly the reason you point out. I had no interest in turning a fun, casual game into...well, whatever you're calling "professional" Magic.

Likewise, I have no interest in playing whatever kind of D&D it is that wouldn't be described as "casual." I'm playing the game for fun, not...uh, bragging rights? (Why exactly are you playing, if not to have fun? Someone will have to tell me.)

But if you take one and put it up against the criteria established by the book (CR appropriate encounters) you start to see performance issues. Large performance issues.

Then why didn't I? I played this character in a "CR appropriate" campaign for long enough (8 levels) that these alleged performance issues surely should have appeared, and yet they didn't. I can assure you the DM didn't pull any punches, and I doubt I was extraordinarily lucky overall.

 

[Dandu]

I haven't played Magic since it first came out, for exactly the reason you point out. I had no interest in turning a fun, casual game into...well, whatever you're calling "professional" Magic.

There's no reason Magic can't be casual. Most games I play are.

Likewise, I have no interest in playing whatever kind of D&D it is that wouldn't be described as "casual." I'm playing the game for fun, not...uh, bragging rights? (Why exactly are you playing, if not to have fun? Someone will have to tell me.)

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't have fun, but we should at least acknowledge that some things you do in the game are worse than other things. WotC has admitted that they made some choices deliberately weaker than others.

Just because Twilight sucks as a work of literature, for example, does not mean it is a bad thing to read and enjoy it. Not everything book has to be on the level of Tolkien... but we should at least admit to the flaws in Twilight even if we are on Team Edward. (Which, incidentally, I am not. I have always preferred werewolves. I mean, Edward's a pasty emo whiner and Jacob's just this gorgeous tanned hunk...)

Then why didn't I? I played this character in a "CR appropriate" campaign for long enough (8 levels) that these alleged performance issues surely should have appeared, and yet they didn't. I can assure you the DM didn't pull any punches, and I doubt I was extraordinarily lucky overall.

Weren't you using 40 point buy? That's as much as four tens. And that's terrible.

In all seriousness, though, the book recommends either the elite array for PCs or 28 point buy for "high powered" games. You had 40 point buy. That's 12 more points than 28 point buy, from a mathematical perspective. That's a lot of points above "high powered". Do you think that might have affected things any?

But if you want to evaluate the build here, we can do that. How do you want to do it? Choose a CR 6 monster from a list of CR 6 monsters? That's considered a reasonable encounter for a solo character by the book.

[sblock]Annis (hag): 2 claws +13 melee and bite +8 melee
Baleen whale: tail slap +17 melee
Belker: 2 wings +9 melee and bite +4 melee and 2 claws +4 melee
Bralani (eladrin): +1 holy scimitar +11/+6 melee or +1 holy composite longbow +11/+6 ranged or slam +10 melee
Chain devil (kyton): 2 chains +10 melee
Demon, babau: 2 claws +12 melee and bite +7 melee
Digester: claw +11 melee
Megaraptor (dinosaur): talons +9 melee and 2 foreclaws +4 melee and bite +4 melee
Ettin: 2 morningstars +12/+7 melee or 2 javelins +5 ranged
Gauth (beholder): eye rays +6 ranged touch and bite -2 melee
Girallon: 4 claws +12 melee and bite +7 melee
Half-black dragon, 4th-level human fighter: masterwork two-bladed sword +10/+10 melee and bite +5 melee, or 2 claws +10 melee and bite +5 melee, or javelin +5 ranged
Hydra, five-headed cryo-: 5 bites +6 melee
Hydra, five-headed pyro-: 5 bites +6 melee
Hydra, seven-headed: 7 bites +10 melee
Lamia: Touch +12 melee, or dagger +12/+7 melee and 2 claws +7 melee
Monstrous centipede, Gargantuan: bite +11 melee
Salamander, average: spear +11/+6 melee and tail slap +9 melee
Shambling mound: 2 slams +11 melee
Skeleton, advanced megaraptor: talons +9 melee and 2 claws +4 melee and bite +4 melee
Tendriculos: bite +13 melee and 2 tendrils +8 melee
Will-o'-wisp: shock +16 melee touch
Wyvern: sting +10 melee and bite +8 melee and 2 wings +8 melee and 2 talons +8 melee
Xill: 2 short swords +5 melee and 2 claws +5 melee, or 4 claws +5 melee, or 2 longbows +4 ranged
Xorn, average: bite +10 melee and 3 claws +8 melee
Zombie, gray render: bite +16 melee or slam +16 melee[/sblock]

Or we could go with a CR 7 monster, if you think that 40 point buy increases your character's power by enough to warrant it.

[sblock]Aboleth:4 tentacles +12 melee
Animated object, Gargantuan: slam +15 melee
Black pudding (ooze): slam +8 melee
Bulette: bite +16 melee and 2 claws +10 melee
Cachalot whale: bite +17 melee and tail slap +12 melee
Chaos beast: 2 claws +10 melee
Chimera: bite +12 melee and bite +12 melee and gore +12 melee and 2 claws +10 melee
Chuul: 2 claws +12 melee
Criosphinx: gore +15 melee and 2 claws +10 melee
Dire bear: 2 claws +19 melee and bite +13 melee
Dragonne: bite +12 melee and 2 claws +7 melee
Drider: 2 daggers +3 melee and bite +1 melee, or shortbow +5 ranged
Elasmosaurus (dinosaur): bite +13 melee
Elemental, Huge (any): 2 slams +19 melee (air and earth), 2 slams +17 melee (fire and water)
Elephant: slam +16 melee and 2 stamps +11 melee, or gore +16 melee
Formian, taskmaster: sting +10 melee and 2 claws +8 melee
Ghost, 5th-level human fighter: incorporeal touch +6 melee (+8 against ethereal foes), or masterwork bastard sword +10 melee, or masterwork shortbow +7 ranged
Giant, hill: greatclub +16/+11 melee or 2 slams +15 melee or rock +8 ranged
Golem, flesh: 2 slams +10 melee
Hellcat (devil): 2 claws +13 melee and bite +8 melee
Hydra, eight-headed: 8 bites +11 melee
Hydra, six-headed cryo-: 6 bites +8 melee
Hydra, six-headed pyro-: 6 bites +8 melee
Invisible stalker: 2 slams +10 melee
Lillend: short sword +11/+6 melee and tail slap +6 melee
Medusa: shortbow +8/+3 ranged, or dagger +8/+3 melee and snakes +3 melee
Monstrous scorpion, Huge: 2 claws +11 melee and sting +6 melee
Naga, water: bite +7 melee
Nymph: dagger +6 melee
Ogre barbarian: +1 greatclub +16 melee or javelin +6 ranged
Phasm: slam +12 melee
Remorhaz: bite +13 melee
Skeleton, cloud giant: Gargantuan morningstar +18 melee or claw +18 melee or rock +8 ranged
Slaad, red: bite +11 melee and 2 claws +9 melee
Spectre: incorporeal touch +6 melee
Succubus (demon): 2 claws +7 melee
Umber hulk: 2 claws +11 melee and bite +9 melee
Vampire, 5th-level human fighter: slam +11 melee or +1 spiked chain +13 melee or masterwork shortbow +9 ranged
Yuan-ti, abomination: masterwork scimitar +13/+8 melee and bite +7 melee, or masterwork composite longbow +10/+5 ranged[/sblock]

 

[marcielle]

That's strange, I thouhgt CR X was an appropriate challenge for FOUR X leveled PCs. How does it become an appropriate for X+2? He has a quarter of the actions. Or do you mean appropriate as in 50/50 chance?
Is this JUST 3.0 or 3.5 as well? It's probably well known, but I haven't seen it meantioned on this thread yet, that monks, with their frontloaded bonus feats that ignore prereqs, make wonderful dips. You can choose from a respectable list even from just the SRD.

I'm currently using this guy and he is serving me well.

Human Monk
Str-15
Dex-13
Con-12
Wis-14
Int-10
Cha-8
Passive Way Monk2/Psychic WarriorX

Jotunbrud, Expeditious Dodge, Monastic Training,Tashalatora, Linked Power, Improved Natural Attack, Karmic Strike
Took the Skilled City Dweller and Soulbound weapon ACFs because we are in low magic/wealth campaign and thus having a scaling magical weapon effectively doubles my WBL. But in normal wealth campaigns, Freedom Mantle ACF is probably better. It also ramps up my to-hit quite nicely.

Usually, I rush in, trip with a Guisarme, trip again next turn, keep tripping till I fail and back off, saving my punching to finish off weak enemies. Unless they have multiple trip modifiers, I usually have a good chance of dropping them face first into the ground.

This worked wonderfully with the entangling DFA in my group, leading to many enemies not being able to touch the 2 of us. This was mitigated slightly by the fact the Knight insisted on running up into their range anyway.

Sorceror in our group has caltrops to prevent him being charged but really, nothing even got near him.

Edit: Professional MtG SCARES me. I know a guy who's a regional champ and I saw him do 10^24 damage once. They needed to find a scientific calculator just to figure that out.

 

[kitcik]

My Monk

Level 10
Thri-Kreen (non-psionic) with LA buyoff
Darkvision, immune to sleep

Houseruled: 1 monsterous humanoid hit die rather than 2
Monstrous Humanoid 1 / Monk 8 / Warblade 1

Abilities (after Thri-Kreen and level adjustments and magic items):
Str 20 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 20 Cha 6

HP 70 AC 27 (29 if move 10') Touch 24 FF 22
Init +5 Move 70'
Fort +11 Refl +15 Will +14

Unarmed Strike +14/+9 (or +13/+13/+8 flurry) Damage 3d6 +6

Key skills: Jump +66, Tumble +20
Skill tricks: Back on Your Feet, Twisted Charge
Feats:
Deflect Arrows (Thri Kreen bonus)
Improved Trip (monk bonus)
Improved Unarmed Strike (monk bonus)
Stunning Fist (monk bonus)
Fiery Fist (monk bonus, ACF) [yes, it is suboptimal]
1: Leap of the Heavens (for the RP)
3: Travel Devotion
6: Improved Natural Attack
9: Knock-Down
Maneuvers: Sudden Leap, some crappy pre-req, Iron Heart Surge, Absolute Steel stance

Gear (note that magic shops are VERY limited):
+1 Gloves of Natural Weaponry (similar function to Necklace of Natural Attacks)
Cloak of Resistance +2
Monk's Belt
Periapt of Wisdom +2
Ring of Protection +2
Various potions

The plan is to get Pouncing Charge and Battle Jump in the next two levels.

He's fun, but as I said a one trick pony: glass cannon. He can do a lot of damage, especially when Enlarged / Mighty Walloped.

 

[Vegepygmy]

But if you want to evaluate the build here, we can do that. How do you want to do it?

I already did. I actually played the character in an actual D&D game, and the character performed wonderfully. There's no need for me to "evaluate the build" any further than that.

RUMBLETiGER asked to see monk builds that people have actually used well and enjoyed, so I provided one. Whether that same build would prove to be combat-effective in a game run by Dandu is immaterial; I'll take your word for it that it would not.