Monks and AC

[eamon]

I've split the Kensai question into a new thread.

It can, and in fact, often has to use unarmed attacks if the foes close to within the effective threatened area of the reach weapon because once the monk starts increasing his reach & damage by increasing his size (by whatever means), that area within the polearm's killzone becomes larger, making unarmed combat skill that much more important. And, of course, the unarmed damage goes up as well...

Your build cannot afford dex boosting items, and you choose to jug Bull's strength potions and choose a PrC which boosts strength. This is not a dex build. Your base unarmed damage is merely 1d8, even when large - which means that most of your unarmed damage comes from strength, and is still much weaker than your primary weapon, being your signature weapon.

Your buffed strength is 28 (14+2size+4enh+8kensai) - you're saying this is NOT a str build?

Your unarmed attack +8bab-1size+9str (1d8+9str) == +16(1d8+9),
your spear attack +8bab-1size+9str+1WF+3enh-4powerAttack (3d6 + 3d6energy +13str+2WeapSpec+3enh+8powerAttack) == +16(6d6+26)

Of course, your build isn't exact, so the numbers might be slightly off. The power attack was chosen to match the attack bonuses

In any circumstance, using your unarmed attack (13.5 damage avg) is a disaster if you can deal 47 avg with the spear.

So let's see: your build isn't a Dex based build, since it depends crucially on strength not dex, it isn't a monk build since it would perform almost identically (probably better) without any monk levels and doesn't rely on a monk's special abilities. You're just showing that you can be a nice Dex-based Monk... if you take twice as many fighter levels as monk levels, a PrC open to everyone, and rely on strength and not dex!. Given that situation, I can make a Dex-based monk too. I think I'll play monk(1)druid(8), and his dex will be a tiny bit higher than his strength - before wildshape, that is, how 'bout that?

Yes I have- I've demonstrated that you don't build them like Str Monks- if you do, they'll pale in comparison every time. Instead of trying to meet force with lesser force, you concentrate on what they do better.

No, you've demonstrated that you build them like Str-based two-handed weapon wielding fighters.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Apparently the best way to play a Dex Monk is to not play Dex Monk at all, which implicitly supports the contentions of the skeptics.

Arguing for a Dex Fighter as superior to a Str Monk is not an argument for a Dex Monk.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I stand by my builds as Dex builds- here's why:

1) As I've stated earlier in this thread, there are far more ways to boost Str than there are Dex. In each case, the initial distribution of relevant stats is Dex first (to 18+), Wis second (to 16+), Str third (whatever is left). Without boosts from other sources, they have no meaningful inherent bonuses to their attack & damage.

Potions are an ablative resource- once they're gone, they're gone. If you're deep in a massive dungeon, you might run out of those in the first day or so's worth of combats. Were I playing this PC in the campaign I'm in currently, I'd have had only 3 opportunities in the past few months (18 sessions or so) to restock.

The Kensai build was fortunate enough to have a Str bonus (the Gith didn't) so could qualify for Power Attack (which is a feat that is almost too good to pass on if you're qualified for it). While the PrCl has a Str boost, its conditional upon making a die roll, and subsequent attempts during the day require increasingly higher rolls.

2) Each build is based upon getting the most out of Combat Reflexes, leading to Feat choices- Hold the Line, Stand Still, Deft Opportunist, etc.- that make no sense if your Dex isn't your primary stat. Emphasizing AoOs means you're hoping to add up effects on your foes via piling up the number of attacks, not upon scoring any one strike in particular. Stand Still even subs an effect for damage- you're trading it off for imobilizing your foes. IOW, you're keeping your foes from running by or off while you pick away at your chosen foe.

3) Your critique of the Kensai build ("if you take twice as many fighter levels as monk levels") was already answered a few posts ago- had the PC been played in a campaign as opposed to a one-shot, all future levels would have been Monk or Kensai, and the Armor would have been dropped in favor of Dex and AC boosters.

...and its combat effectiveness would not decline one whit.

(Heck, if the Kensai had been in a campaign, her equipment distribution would probably have been quite different- how many parties do you know that would let the Monk have the +3 Greatspear they found?)

The Githzerai build had only 2 "warrior levels" (specifically, PsyWar)- all of the rest were Monk or Monk PrCl levels. FWIW, its sole Str booster was the psionic power Expansion.

****

An aside:

One of the features of the Githzerai build was the DCv1 feat, Pole Fighter, which allows a Monk to choose any one particular kind of polearm- say Polaxe, Greatspear, Bec De Corbin, etc.- and use it as a Monk weapon.

A buddy of mine who is out of state pointed out to me that Eberron has a suite of feats that do the same, but only for a Feat-specific weapon (I have no idea what each one is called). According to him, the Feats allow a Longsword, a 2-bladed sword and- most relevant- the Longspear as Monk weapons. The feats themselves use identical language & prereqs as the DCv1 feat.

So, should one choose (and be allowed to use) the relevant Longspear feat, you could build the Kensai or Githzerai build with a Longspear and be able to Flurry- at reach- while piling up the AoOs.

This results in the following changes: The Gith's damage would drop a little (1d12 to a 1d8), and the Kensai would drop the XWP: Greatspear in exchange for this feat, dropping 1d6 base damage per strike in exchange for the FoB.

 

[Zelc]

3) Your critique of the Kensai build ("if you take twice as many fighter levels as monk levels") was already answered a few posts ago- had the PC been played in a campaign as opposed to a one-shot, all future levels would have been Monk or Kensai, and the Armor would have been dropped in favor of Dex and AC boosters.

...and its combat effectiveness would not decline one whit.

Alright, let's suppose it's level 20. I'm guessing you finished with Fighter 4/Monk 6/Kensai 10. Why is this a better build than a Fighter 4/Monk 2/Knight 3/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Kensai 10 that uses a Spiked Chain (choosing the Flurry ability with Exotic Weapon Master)? I think we can agree this is a fighter build more than a monk build. Your build gets Still Mind, Ki Strike, Purity of Body, either Improved Grapple or Improved Trip, and 10 extra feet of movement (and 5.5k gold, I suppose, for saving on the Boots of Striding and Springing). My build gets the ability to turn threatened squares into difficult terrain, less MAD (no need for Wisdom), +1 attack, and no donut hole where I have to use an inferior weapon (or give up my reach for the round using Short Haft). The ability to turn threatened squares into difficult terrain doesn't require you to follow the Knight's Code so there's no disadvantage there (no need to use Knight's Challenge, and there are plenty of ways to RP this).

If you want a character that attacks at reach and makes lots of AoOs, you should go for a Fighter build, not a Monk build. A 2 level dip is nice, but anything more is not very useful.

 

[green slime]

No, monks are not as good as fighters at fighting.

Monks are, IMO, one of the weakest classes in the game, as they fail to live up to what most players expect them to do (visions of Bruce Lee).

Monks are, on the other hand, one of the most interesting characters to play, because of their versatility and staying power.

Fighters, on the other hand, seem to be most adept at dying. More so than any other class.

 

[Hyperfist]

Dex Monks are really good as team players. I know I am using a character that is primarily a dex Monk. I am mixing that with 2 levels in occult slayer and a level in swordsage. That basically allowed me to get weapon finesse and shadowhand blade, I think is the feat. Which allowed me to do dex damage.

AS for creating attacks of opportunity and what not....hehehe. Have your monk with poison immunity attract a bunch of creatures and get mobbed. Then have the spellcaster drop a Cloudkill on the bunch. Get tons of attacks of op. Just an option.

 

[Zelc]

Dex Monks are really good as team players. I know I am using a character that is primarily a dex Monk. I am mixing that with 2 levels in occult slayer and a level in swordsage. That basically allowed me to get weapon finesse and shadowhand blade, I think is the feat. Which allowed me to do dex damage.

Adding the dex to damage stance would almost bridge the gap between Str monks and Dex monks. It does cost a couple of feats though, and it's precision damage. The monk has the annoying multiclassing restrictions too.

AS for creating attacks of opportunity and what not....hehehe. Have your monk with poison immunity attract a bunch of creatures and get mobbed. Then have the spellcaster drop a Cloudkill on the bunch. Get tons of attacks of op. Just an option.

Well, they don't actually have to move since the Cloudkill does.

 

[Hyperfist]

As for the feat...it is only a question of two feats. Just weapon finesse and the shadowhand feat. That is about it. Or you could take one or the other. Depending on how much damage. ACtually more than bridges it...cause then you just need to focus on Dex and not Str. Of course...grappling is still an issue.

True...multiclassing is painful. But it all depends on the flavor you want to carry. Still use the monk abilities, so no armor or shields. All in all not too bad.

Most creatures will move cause the con damage is so nasty. And since SR doesn't work...losing a point of Con a round at the minimum is nasty. And not too many people will know which way the cloud will move. So they scatter.

 

[Slaved]

Adding the dex to damage stance would almost bridge the gap between Str monks and Dex monks. It does cost a couple of feats though, and it's precision damage. The monk has the annoying multiclassing restrictions too.

Why do you say Shadow Blade is precision damage?

 

[Zelc]

True...multiclassing is painful. But it all depends on the flavor you want to carry. Still use the monk abilities, so no armor or shields. All in all not too bad.

Two feats is a lot, and you may have to take more since I'm not sure there's free multiclassing between Monk and Swordsage. Remember, once you take those levels of Occult Slayer, I don't think you can go back to taking Monk levels.

Most creatures will move cause the con damage is so nasty. And since SR doesn't work...losing a point of Con a round at the minimum is nasty. And not too many people will know which way the cloud will move. So they scatter.

That's true. I'm still not sold on the value of an AoO as a Dex Monk.

Why do you say Shadow Blade is precision damage?

Whoops, I was thinking of a different dex to damage effect.