Monks, Mage-Killing and SR Improving

[Thanee]

I'm guessing, now, that you refered to the "Kadan vs Kili" match, and saw one of Kili's posts.

No, that was someone with D...

Well, guess what - he was posting actions for himself and nearly a dozen summoned creatures. So that wasn't one person's single action - that was over ten creatures' collective actions.

Besides, I'd consider that the sole action of the summoner. Of course, summoners are a special case, but still all the summoned stuff are his abilities, so they count towards his action when I say it takes so long to resolve all that stuff.

But the one I read didn't have any summoned creatures, or only one. It was only a couple timestops and so on.

Bye
Thanee

 

[sithramir]

I'm still waiting for a way to beat the mage from a monk ESPECIALLY from a VoP monk?

Are you assuming you're getting the jump on me and somehow destroyed all the magic items and spells that are currently up?

Most monk abilities from attacks are brought to nil by a Heavy Fortification item.

No smart epic mage will not have a death ward up and a +5 resistance cloak. Now he's got moment of prescience to add 20 to a save Just in case.

All he needs is two forge cages and you lose unless he chose to use a quickened dimensional lock with one which pretty much works for his first attack. The only defense is SR and he will most likely have the two feats and potentially a +1 ioun stone since its so cheap. With this (lets say you guys are 25th level?) he has a +30 to beat SR so even with a SR 40 item he's got 50/50 to get the dimensional lock on.

So it basically comes down to killing him the first round which I don't see a way a monk is able.

 

[Thanee]

I'm still waiting for a way to beat the mage from a monk ESPECIALLY from a VoP monk?

He can't even find the mage without help...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

I'm still waiting for a way to beat the mage from a monk ESPECIALLY from a VoP monk?

Are you assuming you're getting the jump on me and somehow destroyed all the magic items and spells that are currently up?

No such assumption.

Most monk abilities from attacks are brought to nil by a Heavy Fortification item.

But not straight damage.

No smart epic mage will not have a death ward up and a +5 resistance cloak. Now he's got moment of prescience to add 20 to a save Just in case.

Who needs saves, wizards don't have that many hitpoints.

All he needs is two forge cages and you lose unless he chose to use a quickened dimensional lock with one which pretty much works for his first attack. The only defense is SR and he will most likely have the two feats and potentially a +1 ioun stone since its so cheap. With this (lets say you guys are 25th level?) he has a +30 to beat SR so even with a SR 40 item he's got 50/50 to get the dimensional lock on.

Dire charge, grapple, pin-and-silence. How exactly are you going to cast those spells, hmm?

So it basically comes down to killing him the first round which I don't see a way a monk is able.

Or grappling him, silencing him, and keeping him held. VOP makes that more difficult, yes - but not impossible. And yes, the Exodus HAS put in place an entirely-needed nerf to Freedom of Movement (it's a big bonus, not outright immunity, when faced with a grappler).

Sans the vow of poverty, an Attuned Gem (Dimension Lock, triggered when within 5' of two creatures) stops teleporting away. If it weren't for the Exodus' limits on contingency effects, another of Silence would solve a lot of OTHER spellcasting problems.

Maybe some levels of Reaping Mauler, and the Earth's Embrace feat ... and, if the monk gets initiative, and can reach the Wizard ... it's only a matter of time.

Of coure, if the wizard wins, or can keep the monk away from him yet still lob spells around, it goes the other way. No surprises there.

By-the-book, with levels of Occult Slayer (instead of RM), along with Infinite/Exceptional Deflection and Reflect Arrow ... a lot of standard wizard attack spells stop being very useful.

All things considered, I'd say the matchup is pretty balanced, actually.

He can't even find the mage without help

Like I said - True Seeing. The Vow of Poverty grants that as a continuous effect, at 18th level. So unless you're impenetribly hidden even from other SPELLCASTERS (which means theres no issue with the monk vis-a-vis your concealed status), you're found just by being within LOS.

 

[Pax]

No, that was someone with D...

Then it was probably Darien or D'rekk. And in both those cases, you weren't looking at "one action" - you were looking at the action and a lengthy list of effects, not all of which would be IC knowledge, but are listed so that the other player can appropriately adjust the RESULTS of their actions. (For example, you the character might not know IC that the guy you're about to swing at has "DR 8/adamantine", but if your weapon isn't adamantine, you the player need to know that, so that you can reduce your damage dealt accordingly.)

But the one I read didn't have any summoned creatures, or only one. It was only a couple timestops and so on.

Bye
Thanee

Then you probably saw the initial posts - which means, two rounds of preparatory actions. Yes, two rounds of actions. That's typically when Timestop gets cast - to give the caster enough time in which to get up their precombat effects (wether by spells they themselves cast, or by using potions, scrolls, and so on).

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Dire charge, grapple, pin-and-silence. How exactly are you going to cast those spells, hmm?


Or grappling him, silencing him, and keeping him held. VOP makes that more difficult, yes - but not impossible. And yes, the Exodus HAS put in place an entirely-needed nerf to Freedom of Movement (it's a big bonus, not outright immunity, when faced with a grappler).

So you are trying to convince us that monks can grapple a mage in a ruleset that is not the one written in the SRD and 3.5 books?

Sure, I can houserule a spell all I want, but as written, freedom of movement works the way it does. So the monk is SOL with grappling.

He can't even find the mage without help

Like I said - True Seeing. The Vow of Poverty grants that as a continuous effect, at 18th level. So unless you're impenetribly hidden even from other SPELLCASTERS (which means theres no issue with the monk vis-a-vis your concealed status), you're found just by being within LOS.

I think the point is that the wizard is three planes and a continent away, scrying on the monk. And true seeing does nothing against a wall of force or even a wall of stone. Or a targetted dispel magic on the monk's flying item. Besides, doesn't mind blank foil true seeing?

 

[Thanee]

About damage... Hide Life takes care of any damage you can ever deal.
Moment of Prescience takes care of Quivering Palm.

Any other tricks up your sleave?
The mage still has quite a few spells left.

Dire charge, grapple, pin-and-silence. How exactly are you going to cast those spells, hmm?

Pin doesn't prevent spellcasting.

...nerf to Freedom of Movement

Yeah, that's good for such an arena style combat. Otherwise grapple would be completely pointless.

Attuned Gem (Dimension Lock, triggered when within 5' of two creatures) stops teleporting away.

Stuff cast by items hardly beats spell resistance (can do, but has a much lower chance).

Like I said - True Seeing. The Vow of Poverty grants that as a continuous effect, at 18th level. So unless you're impenetribly hidden even from other SPELLCASTERS (which means theres no issue with the monk vis-a-vis your concealed status), you're found just by being within LOS.

I think you simply didn't get what I was aiming at... Let me explain...

This is about mage-killer characters. To kill the mage, you must first locate the mage.

Now, I said, I simply won't show up in the arena, because as a smart mage (high Int ) I know you only want to kill me there, so why should I actually make it easy for you and come to you? That would be stupid. If I wanted to kill you, I'd do it at a moment of my choice. And I do have the means to locate you.

So I'll - of course - not be within line of sight (or even within your sighting range). I might be in my underground fortress, hundreds of miles away, several miles into the earth, with no physical access, protected by various spells to prevent divinations from locating my hiding place and so on.

Ok, I will not be in the arena, since the first step is to actually find me (and get to where I am). Since your VoP Monk has no means to solve this (both parts), because he cannot use items, I win. Easy victory.

Hey, you want to kill me, not the other way around.

That's what I meant.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

About damage... Hide Life takes care of any damage you can ever deal.

Which isn't an issue with the Monk, it's an issue with the spell hide life; that spell works against ANYthing that'd kill you - a cleric mage-killer would be just as stumped.

Pin doesn't prevent spellcasting.

Grappling produces a concentration check, though. And pinning CAN silence you, which means no (v)erbal components.

Stuff cast by items hardly beats spell resistance (can do, but has a much lower chance).

And the wizard has spell resistance form what, exactly? Remember that worn items can be stripped off of you, once you're pinned.

I think you simply didn't get what I was aiming at... Let me explain...

This is about mage-killer characters. To kill the mage, you must first locate the mage.

Now, I said, I simply won't show up in the arena, because as a smart mage (high Int ) I know you only want to kill me there, so why should I actually make it easy for you and come to you? That would be stupid. If I wanted to kill you, I'd do it at a moment of my choice. And I do have the means to locate you.

Which is a laughable comparison. Truly. The presumption is, "look, some guy you've never seen before just walked up, and said "time to die, puny wizard". IOW, an encounter.

So I'll - of course - not be within line of sight (or even within your sighting range). I might be in my underground fortress, hundreds of miles away, several miles into the earth, with no physical access, protected by various spells to prevent divinations from locating my hiding place and so on.

Fine, and we'll price all that per the Stronghold Builder's guide; it comes out of yoru pocket, leaving you less gold for equipment.

Besides which, the premise is "a monk encounters a wizard, and combat ensues - what are the monk's chances of dropping the wizard" ... not "a monk suddenly takes it into his head to find a wizard and kill him - how hard is it for the monk to find the wizard".

 

[Caliban]

Which isn't an issue with the Monk, it's an issue with the spell hide life; that spell works against ANYthing that'd kill you - a cleric mage-killer would be just as stumped.


Grappling produces a concentration check, though. And pinning CAN silence you, which means no (v)erbal components.


And the wizard has spell resistance form what, exactly? Remember that worn items can be stripped off of you, once you're pinned.


Which is a laughable comparison. Truly. The presumption is, "look, some guy you've never seen before just walked up, and said "time to die, puny wizard". IOW, an encounter.


Fine, and we'll price all that per the Stronghold Builder's guide; it comes out of yoru pocket, leaving you less gold for equipment.

Besides which, the premise is "a monk encounters a wizard, and combat ensues - what are the monk's chances of dropping the wizard" ... not "a monk suddenly takes it into his head to find a wizard and kill him - how hard is it for the monk to find the wizard".

That's your premise, which you are trying to force on Thanee. It is not the one she was using, as she said from the beginning. So why don't you pull the stick out and calm down?

Besides, what you've mainly posted seems to be house rules against anything that prevents the monk from instantly charging and grappling the wizard.

 

[Thanee]

Which isn't an issue with the Monk, it's an issue with the spell hide life; that spell works against ANYthing that'd kill you - a cleric mage-killer would be just as stumped.

The cleric has means to kill a hide life (yes, the spell is broken ) mage, tho. Plenty even.

Grappling produces a concentration check, though. And pinning CAN silence you, which means no (v)erbal components.

Oh, wow! What was the character level again?

And the wizard has spell resistance form what, exactly? Remember that worn items can be stripped off of you, once you're pinned.

Item? Limited Wish?

Which is a laughable comparison. Truly. The presumption is, "look, some guy you've never seen before just walked up, and said "time to die, puny wizard". IOW, an encounter.

Teleport. So, now we have our situation, unless of course you only want to be a mage-scarecrow.

Besides which, the premise is "a monk encounters a wizard, and combat ensues - what are the monk's chances of dropping the wizard" ... not "a monk suddenly takes it into his head to find a wizard and kill him - how hard is it for the monk to find the wizard".

Ok.

So, what does the monk do?

i.e. Forcecage. Abundant Step. Another Forcecage. Now?

In case the monk actually manages to get a grapple + silence somehow before the mage can act... silent dimension door or even better Lutzaen's frequent jaunt, or just activate the item, which does that, or wait for the contingency to do so (hop to a point the monk cannot see, of course), then head back and squish the wanna-be mage-killer.

I really don't see what the puny monk can do, except hope that the mage is of the sort, that is not prepared for grapples and other such simple anti-mage tactics at all times.

Bye
Thanee