Monster Manual IV thoughts?

[Razz]

How about a book that you only use 20-25 pages of ever? In all likelyhood, that describes how many creatures anyone reading this has used from MM II, III or the Fiend Folio.

That may be the case for some, but the fact remains the rest of the pages still remain useful to those same people. I may have yet to use the phoenix from MM2 or the susurrus from MM3 in my games, but it's wonderful to know that whenever I do need one that it's there waiting for me to use. (The same would apply with spells, feats, PrC, etc. for me)

 

[BryonD]

How about a book that you only use 20-25 pages of ever? In all likelyhood, that describes how many creatures anyone reading this has used from MM II, III or the Fiend Folio.

a) Not me.
b) For anyone for which this is true they are either a fool who will buy anything or tired of being fooled and would not be likely to buy MMIV anyway.
c) Adding a new kind of monster does not somehow improve the batting average of the other monsters. If a book with 100% new monsters has 20-25 useful pages then a book with 20% "wasted" pages and the rest new monsters is down to a remainder of 15-20 useful pages.
d) Does defending MMIV by saying the last three sucked fall under "Friends like these..."?

 

[BryonD]

No, it's completely different, because Feats are only vaguely related to spells in some cases, while classed monsters are still monsters.

Well, we disagree.

The key word I used was "expecting". I expect NEW ideas. And I strongly believe that a significant fraction of the market agrees with me.

Besides, if there was no difference, then Enemies and Allies would have been called Monster Manual II.

Seriously, if we see it different, then fine. I don't have an issue with your opinion.
But, regardless of your opinion, it is important to note that there are a lot of people who share MY opinion and that has an impact on sales and in turn on future products. I think (hope) we both agree that effective marketing is best for continued game advancement.

 

[Mercule]

it is important to note that there are a lot of people who share MY opinion and that has an impact on sales and in turn on future products.

Thank you. I'm more than a bit sick of the attitude some people have taken with people who didn't like the book. It's like some sort of inquisition.

Heck, I suspected I wouldn't like the book, but I took the time to actually go to B&N and look through the thing, then post things I liked and things I didn't. When I had problems with the Spawn, which do take up a significant portion of the book, I was not allowed to leave it at "I don't like 'em and hope they aren't indicative of future developments at WotC". Instead, I got pushed into having to be antagonistic about it (granted, that took place on a day I was in a work-related foul mood to begin with).

There are several of us who don't like the book for one reason or another. That may be that a huge chunk is taken up by a flagship monster that is uninteresting, or that there are a lot of pages taken up by non-Monster Manual content, or because the new layout takes up too much space and the book is thinner. It may even be more than one of the above (I'll take 'a' and 'b', thanks).

It's lapdog howling about how closed-minded and horrible people who don't like this stuff are that make me almost want to see MM4 turn into a money-loser. Almost, but not quite. Because I really don't want to have bad things happen to people who disagree with me. I do want products that support the style of game I like to play at a good cost:benefit ratio.

MM4 appears to be just below that threshold, IMO. If it inserted some more cool monsters in place of either the classed critters or the Spawn, it'd probably have me. I may still pick up a copy because the monsters that are cool, are really cool -- and because I'll buy it at Amazon pricing, not LGS pricing. It will remain a reluctant purchase, though, because it toes that line.

 

[Razz]

Does anyone remember 2E? That edition of D&D where things were either all fluff, all crunch, or a beautiful mix of the two? When books were made of soft-cover, didn't have tons of elgant and expensive art and maps and were always $20 or less? (on Amazon, these would amount to $13 or less). Where the font size was small enough so that it did not matter how many pages were in the book because the smaller the book the smaller the font so they essentially squeezed in the same amount of material?

Yeah, I remember those days.

I don't understand WotC. Does EVERYTHING have to be hard cover and elegantly formatted? If the number of their pages were dropped, why not decrease the font size? Say it was font size 12 in 192 pages, why not drop it to size 10 when the pages decreased to 160? They're worried about space and material getting cut and either forgotten or made into WE, why not do that?

Case in point, the perfect font size for all D&D books, whether between 160 or 320 pages, would be the font size in the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. That was perfect right there.

If MM4 was that font size, same layout and same pages (224), I would not be so adamant about how sucky it is. I'd actually like it. It'd actually have enough to please everyone. Over 150+ monsters, I estimate, all laid out in the same format and pleasing all at once. Price increase? Who cares! I'd rather pay an extra $10 than get stuck on the losing end of the deal.

 

[WizarDru]

Does anyone remember 2E? That edition of D&D where things were either all fluff, all crunch, or a beautiful mix of the two? When books were made of soft-cover, didn't have tons of elgant and expensive art and maps and were always $20 or less? (on Amazon, these would amount to $13 or less).

No, I don't remember 2e. I dropped the game at that point, as did my entire gaming group. However, I do remember the cost of paper back then...and it was a lot less. The prices have come down somewhat recently, but the cheap days of the mid-90s are long since gone. What was once $528 per short ton rose up to over $1000 per ton. Coming back down to $850 a ton is not a victory, just a result of increased imports.

I don't understand WotC. Does EVERYTHING have to be hard cover and elegantly formatted?

Well, according to comments from WotC and other publishers in the past...Yes. Hard cover books sell much better than soft-cover books, at least for them. And those $20 softcover books, once you adjust for inflation, would be about $25 today, so the gulf between them isn't as large...especially when you consider the difference in print quality. Most of the softcovers were black-and-white or three-color (using blue, red, brown or such).

And judging by discussions held here featuring folks like Chris Pramas and Erik Mona, most hardcover books are under-priced, because WotC can afford an economy of scale that no other game publisher can. Hence the cost of Ptolus or Shackled City, compared to other books of comparable size. That's how WotC can release a full-color book for the same price as a b/w book from a smaller publisher.

None of which has anything to do with the content of said books, either way.

 

[Mercule]

No, I don't remember 2e. I dropped the game at that point, as did my entire gaming group.

Yup. I hated 2E. There were a few good ideas, but the game books had a "feel" to them that I didn't care for. Can't get more specific then that because of the time involved.

Well, according to comments from WotC and other publishers in the past...Yes. Hard cover books sell much better than soft-cover books, at least for them.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I pretty much won't buy softcover books. I don't like the way they feel in my hands, and they don't hold up nearly as well as hardbound. My hardcovers that see weekly, if not near daily, use are in near mint condition. My softcovers that saw only occasional use are tattered and frayed at the corners and the covers curl. I just refuse to buy them anymore, unless it's a main rulebook for a system that is so awesome it makes up for crap production.

 

[satori01]

Wanna bet on that? I suspect that most of the people who have purchased it (especially the ones who preordered it, sight unseen) will in fact be disappointed. I am rather glad not to have made the purchase myself.



The Auld Grump

The thing is, most of the people who have posted in this thread who have the book give it average marks. Those who are opposed to MM IV design focus are the ones crying foul.

Now I am not being snarky, I am not attacking people for not liking what they have heard of a product, and thus not buying it. I have no problem with people posting, what about a product they have never seen, makes them not want to buy it.

All I can say for sure is I originaly was in the same, "I am not going to buy it "boat. I thought adding class levels to monster was simple, and not needed in a MMIV, and reading about Spawn of Tiamat made me want to buy the 3.5 Dragonlance setting more than this book. Then the book was given to me as a gift, and I think it is average, perhaps a bit below average, but not terrible.

I loved the idea of an Ogre Scout with Longspear,(used same idea once with a Barbarian), and not having the Marshal class liked the Yuan-Ti Abmoniation with Marshal levels.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The thing is, most of the people who have posted in this thread who have the book give it average marks. Those who are opposed to MM IV design focus are the ones crying foul.

Now I am not being snarky, I am not attacking people for not liking what they have heard of a product, and thus not buying it. I have no problem with people posting, what about a product they have never seen, makes them not want to buy it.

All I can say for sure is I originaly was in the same, "I am not going to buy it "boat. I thought adding class levels to monster was simple, and not needed in a MMIV, and reading about Spawn of Tiamat made me want to buy the 3.5 Dragonlance setting more than this book. Then the book was given to me as a gift, and I think it is average, perhaps a bit below average, but not terrible.

I loved the idea of an Ogre Scout with Longspear,(used same idea once with a Barbarian), and not having the Marshal class liked the Yuan-Ti Abmoniation with Marshal levels.

Read the thread again - most people on this thread have given it below average marks... Some have given it terrible marks, and a few have given it good marks - maybe we should do a poll?

The Auld Grump

 

[WizarDru]

Read the thread again - most people on this thread have given it below average marks... Some have given it terrible marks, and a few have given it good marks - maybe we should do a poll?

A Poll!

That'll put the discussion to rest!