Monster Manual IV thoughts?

[BryonD]

But I didn't JUST get new monsters. For me, that's a critical difference. I didn't purchase the MM II (though Shackled City has me considering it, just for completeness' sake) and wasn't thrilled with the MMM III. I liked the Fiend Folio, because it had some monsters I wanted in it (and again, Shackled City). MM IV didn't just give me stat-blocks, it gives me cookie-cutter material I can drop in anywhere I want, without having to do a lot of work or spend a lot of time. That's worth it to me. Considering how much I tend to cherry-pick any particular book, I'd say that Yes, the remaining portion is worthwhile to me.

And that is fine. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what they should like.

I know that for me paying for 220 pages and getting about 20-25 pages of material that I really was looking for woudl not be an acceptable deal.

Add my position above the highly limited value to me of signle CR options and I think you'll understand why I did not buy this one.

I would buy that in a heartbeat, as I was in the minority that really liked and got a lot of use out of Enemies and Allies. However, you've changed verbs there and that changes my answer, somewhat. I said I didn't NEED new monsters, I never said I didn't WANT new monsters. The difference, for me, is that I don't need the same density as the Monster Manual. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy new monsters...the Elemental Avatars, for example, are nearly worth the price of the book for me. And I LIKE the Dragonspawn.

Ok.
I think that the point we are at now in the D20 market cycle makes a big difference in what people want when it comes to things like Enemies and Allies.

Sorry about the verb change. I didn't mean anything by it. I just prefer the word "want" when we talk about games. I don't NEED any game books at all. And even with my on-going game I don't NEED any more. I WANT more, but don't NEED them. Which is not to be critical of your word choice. Just explaining mine.

And as to the quality of dragonspawn, I won't make much comment having not bought the book. But I will observe that you appear to be in a significant minority there.

Well, I got the impression that people didn't like Spell Compendium because it was riddled with errors and mistakes.

I see your point, although I know some folks who were pretty disappointed in Libris Mortis.

Fair enough, but neither of those points are relavant to the matter at hand.
If it turns out that the MMIV drow statblocks are riddled with errors, that will have no impact on whether you or anyone else wants to have drow statblocks.

 

[Pants]

Here I disagree.
It is an example of expecting A and getting B.

No, it's completely different, because Feats are only vaguely related to spells in some cases, while classed monsters are still monsters.

 

[Echohawk]

Traps, mechanical and magical, provide challenges to PCs too, maybe MM5 should have 1/3 of the book dedicated to tons of new traps, the ecology impacted by those traps, the society of people creating those traps, the typical treasure left behind when those traps slay their victims, Knowledge (dungeoneering) or Knowledge (architecture&engineering)tables for those traps, maps providing areas of where to stick those traps for DMs without a second of time to waste.

I'd buy this .

 

[WizarDru]

And that is fine. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what they should like.

And I certainly didn't think you were doing so. I can easily understand why someone wouldn't like the book. I was just trying to illustrate why I did.

Sorry about the verb change. I didn't mean anything by it. I just prefer the word "want" when we talk about games. I don't NEED any game books at all. And even with my on-going game I don't NEED any more. I WANT more, but don't NEED them. Which is not to be critical of your word choice. Just explaining mine.

I didn't mean to sound like I thought you were trying to trick me or anything, and I'm sorry if it sounded like I did. My point was simply that you asked the legitimate question: "If you' don't need any more monsters, why are you buying a monster book?" To which my reply is that I don't NEED them, but I do WANT them. In other words, I didn't feel cheated by getting a monster book with classed core creatures, a large section on one kind of creature and lots of supplementary material because since my need for monsters is essentially met, I was getting something different out of MM IV than just that, if that makes any sense.

Fair enough, but neither of those points are relavant to the matter at hand.
If it turns out that the MMIV drow statblocks are riddled with errors, that will have no impact on whether you or anyone else wants to have drow statblocks.

I kid because I love. They weren't really an argument, just me making silly comments. You are entirely correct.

 

[TheEvil]

My biggest question would be why the Knowledge DC's seemed to be based on the CR of the monster, not the HD, even though the section in the front on knowledge checks say DC's are 10+HD. Anyone else notice this?

 

[the black knight]

As a monster manual, the book blows harder than Katrina. If they had called it Rogues Gallery, that would have been different.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

As I said before,

This can be this first in a great step forward (even great steps can start out as stumbles) or falling flat on its face.

I've begun to use the monsters. They work OK.

The new stat blocks, might, might work better for me if they tweak them a bit. The Old Ones (3.5) actually have all the info I need to plan, modify, and execute an encounter, even if the layout isn't the most logical of all designs. But, now that I've memorized it, it works fine.

The new layout could make things a lot easier to execute (provided I learn the new layout), but it makes it a pain in the butt to modify things quickly. I'm at the point now where all the aid in planning is really not needed, but even an old dog sees a new trick now and then.

I like the idea of classed monsters. The advanced versions (like the Nightmare) in the MM are really neat. I'd have loved a 6 page spread of different classed orcs, or 3-4 various Ogres.... In the Monster Manaul. If MM IV had original monsters, then showed 4-5 classed versions, I'd have no problems. As is, too much of MMIV seemed a Web Extra for the MM for my taste.

If you like monsters. If your players have every core monster memorized. If you like expand your variety. If you have 30-40 bucks left over in your gaming budget....

Pick up MMIV. You won't be dissapointed. You may not be thrilled, but not dissapointed.

Potential aplenty sits between those covers, but we aren't seeing it in this book.

I dub thee "AVERAGE".

The Kobold Cleric has spoken.

Thus it IS.

 

[Razz]

Page count on $29.95 books going from 192 to 160 is a change and yup, I think it was a bad one.

Ugh, don't remind me that one, please. It's one of those things I really want to be "out of sight, out of mind."

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Pick up MMIV. You won't be dissapointed. You may not be thrilled, but not dissapointed.

Wanna bet on that? I suspect that most of the people who have purchased it (especially the ones who preordered it, sight unseen) will in fact be disappointed. I am rather glad not to have made the purchase myself.

For me at least it is a matter of not being what was promised by titling it 'Monster Manual'. People are familiar with what previous books in the series contained, and will be justified in feeling that this book does not live up to the rest of the series in regards to the number of new monster.

I can add class levels to monsters myself, it is one of the things that I like to use PCGen to accomplish. I do not need to buy a book with a third of its content being something that I can do myself.

Had it been marketed as a book of encounters contaning X number of new monsters I would not feel disappointed. I would not purchase it, but it would not leave me feeling disgruntled in the same manner that claiming that this book was in some way similar to the Monster manual did. I was looking forward to seeing how the book handled the new stat blocks, and hoping that unlike MM II and III it contained enough monsters that held my interest to be a worthwhile purchase. Instead it had less content that held my attention, and a great deal that I found useless.

The Auld Grump

 

[Hussar]

And that is fine. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what they should like.

I know that for me paying for 220 pages and getting about 20-25 pages of material that I really was looking for woudl not be an acceptable deal.

Add my position above the highly limited value to me of signle CR options and I think you'll understand why I did not buy this one.

How about a book that you only use 20-25 pages of ever? In all likelyhood, that describes how many creatures anyone reading this has used from MM II, III or the Fiend Folio.