Monsters and Heroes

If the rogue stays a normal PC, and just attacks you in the night, he would most surely kill one of your other players by Daily, Action point, Daily. Easy as that.

PCs are very very frontloaded damage wise, and their hp are the opposite.
You can easily drop a PC by just being lucky on the first round. Two solid hits by a striker and done.

If you are converting a PC to an NPC however I would not make him a solo. He was no solo before, why should he become one now?
He should be either an elite, or you just stick to the old PC and leave that be. He is already statted up, he is euipped, so it is no extra work for the DM.

The DM shoul however bear in mind, that the rogue is now a very very deadly foe. And if he only has to expect one battle the day, he will be quite deadly with a little bit support.

As mentioned above, healing potions and such will make the rogue have double hp in the end too, just in a different way.
 

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Azlith

First Post
Drizzt is a prime example. The players KNOW he's a ranger, they KNOW he's been stated like a PC in earlier editions...and they KNOW that at most, the Ranger at 30th level will have a maximum if munchkined of around 200 HP probably. They are much lower then 30th...they also know they've done about 400 HP worth of damage...at which point they are like...DUDE...what's UP with this false little set up of a Ranger?

However, if I were to make him up as a 4E Ranger, my group would end up saying: "Wow! That was Drizzt? I thought he was supposed to be tough. He died in half a round. I guess 120 HP don't go as far as they used to. That was boring and anticlimactic."

Remember that by mid-Paragon, your strikers should be averaging around 25-30 damage with an at-will. Also, PC defenses are usually a little behind monster defenses and are a bit easier to hit. Increased defenses and higher hit points lets the monster stick around long enough to use those few cool powers that they've got. An NPC built like a PC will die before he even gets to use 4 of those 15 cool powers he has.
 

Aegeri

First Post
This is one place that 4th edition cares more about mechanical balance and very little about "MAH IMMERSHUNS". In the end, I've tried having PC like monsters and they function horribly. Either very one sided or they are massacred trivially.

Also, the only good amount of HP for Drizz't to have is 0.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
My primary thought is that it would simply make combat even more prolonged than it already is. That and it would be a neverending headache for the Gm to essentially run his own party, while he also kept an eye on your party.

Generally, pvp scenarios go very poorly.
 

Negflar2099

Explorer
To each their own but personally I VASTLY prefer the 4e way. I'm sorry but I don't have the brain power to run 1 NPC with all the same powers as a PC in an encounter, not when I'm also running monsters and God knows what else. When you toss in 2 or more NPCs my brain turns to ooze. I don't know how many times I ran 3.x encounters where the PCs trounce the bad guys only to have me realize after the battle is over that I forgot some key ability or some important spell because I just can't keep track of that much stuff at once.

Your mileage obviously does vary, but I don't care about realism, not when it gets in the way of my being able to run a game. I don't care that NPCs have different rules than PCs, I don't care that it doesn't make sense, and I don't care that my PCs don't understand why Drizzt has way more HP than he should have (he also has way fewer powers and magic items but they always seem to forget that part).

I like this system so much that I even tried converting Star Wars SAGA edition NPCs into the 4e system. The result was my battles were faster and smoother than they've ever been. Of course doing that conversion took so much work on it's own that I burned out on DMing anyway but at least the few fights we had were quick and dirty.

That's just my two cents. In the endless argument of realism vs. playability I doubt there will ever be a system that satisfies everyone. :)
 

One thing that sort of bothers me on 4e occasionally is the different rules governing Heroes from Monsters. Well...more exactly, heroes from NPC's, and even more exactly...HUMAN, ELF, DWARF, etc...player races PC's vs Player Races NPCs.

I can buy the idea that Monsters are monsters. They have limited abilities. They are...afterall...Monsters. IT isn't like your dog is suddenly going to develop the ability to become a Master Arch Sorcerer (well...unless you play 3.X in which case you may have your dog become an Arch Mage). Differences in how monsters have their abilities and hp figured are just fine...however then you come to the same types of species. Drizzt is a good example from what I've seen. He's an NPC with 700+ HP, and only a few powers. However...in truth he should be a Dark Elf Ranger that had the same stats as a PC in older editions.

No.

There are several problems with these statements.

First of all, humanoid "monsters" generally have the race-specific traits found in the PH. For instance, halfling "monsters" often have Second Chance, dwarves often have Steady-Footed and +5 to save vs poison, and so forth.

Second, there are no official stats for Drizzt. You read something bad, maybe a fanboy's "re-creation". (Even a Drizzt fan could simply throw Drizzt at a lower-level "evil" party; the PCs couldn't hit him, he couldn't miss, it'd be just like reading a Salvatore novel!)

Third, the only way Drizzt gets 700 hit points is if he's a solo. There's no way a standard skirmisher of any level gets that many hit points.

Fourth, there are NPC rules you can use instead of monster rules, and they even work well, but they're complicated.

Look at this 5th-level ranger. Then try picturing him at 16th-level or more to simulate Drizzt. (He would have at least three more abilities.)

Soveliss, elf archer ranger
Level 5 Skirmisher (really Artillery) 5; XP 200
HP 60 (30)
Initiative +6
AC 20; Fort 17, Ref 19, Will 16
Perception +11, low-light vision
Speed 7

Traits
Defensive Mobility: The ranger gains a +2 bonus to AC against opportunity attacks.
Group Awareness * Aura 5. Non-elf allies in the aura gain a +1 racial bonus bonus to Perception checks.
Wild Step: The elf ignores difficult terrain when it shifts.

Standard Actions
Short Sword (weapon) * At-Will. Attack: +7 vs AC. Hit: 1d6+3 damage.
Nimble Strike (martial, weapon) * At-Will. Attack: Ranged 20.40; +10 vs AC. Hit: 1d10+6 damage (+1d6 on crit). Effect: The ranger may shift 1 square before or after the attack.
Cut and Run (martial, weapon) * Encounter. Attack: Ranged 20/40 (1 or 2 enemies); +10 vs AC. Hit: 1d10+6 damage (+1d6 on crit). Effect: After the first or second attack, the ranger may shift 3 squares.
Second Wind (healing) * Encounter. The ranger spends a healing surge and regains 15 hit points. The ranger gains a +2 bonus to all defenses until the start of their next turn.
Splintering Shot (martial, weapon) * Daily. Attack: Ranged 20/40; +10 vs AC. Hit: 3d10+6 damage (+1d6 on crit), and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of the encounter. Miss: Half damage, and the target takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls until the end of the encounter.

Minor Actions
Hunter's Quarry * At-Will (1/round). Targets nearest enemy; the ranger deals +1d8 damage once per turn against it's quarry. Only one creature can be the ranger's quarry at a time.

Triggered Actions
Elven Accuracy * Encounter. Trigger: The elf misses with an attack roll. Effect (Free Action): The elf rerolls the attack roll, and must use the second roll.
Yield Ground (martial) * Encounter. Trigger: An enemy damages the ranger with a melee attack. Effect (Immediate Reaction): The ranger shifts 2 squares and gains a +2 power bonus to all defenses until the end of their next turn.

Skills: Nature +10, Stealth +11
Str 15, Dex 19, Wis 15
Con 12, Int 11, Cha 10
Equipment: +1 longbow, 20 arrows, short sword, +1 leather armor, +1 cloak of protection.

If you were to "Drizzt" this guy up, you'd run into a few problems. Drizzt has a lot more equipment than a 16th-22nd level ranger is likely to have, and some (his leg bracers) would be really hard to stat out. He has a bunch of abilities (hunter's "rage", for instance) that aren't part of the ranger class. And then you end up with a character who is very complicated to run in combat.

This comes into play even moreso when PC's retire and become NPC's. Should they suddenly have a HUGE boost in power, gain a TON more HP...and keep their powers...and suddenly JUST ONE of them could threaten the ENTIRE GROUP from before...simply because they became an NPC?

Wrong.

If you compare the 5th-level ranger I have above to a 5th-level ranger PC, you'll find they're a lot weaker. They have fewer abilities and probably less equipment. Their hit point total isn't the same. They have fewer healing surges (NPCs get 1 surge per tier, period). If anything, he's getting nerfed.

Taking Orcus as an example from MM1 and backtracking his stats...as a PC he should only have around 300 HP. OF course that isn't going to be the threat to a party of NPC's like an Orcus with 1500+ HP, but it seems that one could scale the power of solos MUCH better by decalculating their HP and abilities and then recalculating as if they were PC's.

Orcus is a solo. That's a very bad example.

In some ways, it's almost as if they take the PC class and multiply HP and abilities by not much at Heroic, by x3 at Paragon, and x6 at Epic. Or by the rules...5x HP with applicable powers (via the MM1 method) for Solo monsters etc.

Again, wrong. You've been told already by other people, NPCs are rarely solos, and classed NPCs (if they use the template rather than the "base" NPC rules I used above would still be elites, no more).

For example...in epic play some players say...hey...this guy is a Ranger in the books, and WE KNOW how Rangers are built according to the rules...something wrong is going on with your Ranger Mr. DM...

Drizzt never followed the ranger rules in any edition, and I've read quite a few Drizzt books. He just gets called that.
 

Obryn

Hero
I'm in the same boat as Jhaelen. I found that "everyone uses the same rules" was a huge draw for 3e, but after working with it for 6 of the 8 years I played it, I was done. It was more trouble than it was worth, IMO.

Now, I understand what you're saying about NPCs and PCs having access to different abilities and different amounts of HPs... However, when it comes down to it, I think running a group of PCs against another group of PCs would be a disaster. There's a few reasons for this...

(1) Focused fire. If your awesome NPC has a normal PC's amount of hit points, they will die in Round 1, before you can get off those Dailies and Encounters you spent 30 minutes picking. By the same token, your group of NPCs has many times more nova power than a similar group of monsters.

(2) Complexity. I have five NPCs, each of which has a dozen or more powers. Many of those powers give complex conditions. On top of that, there are 5 PCs doing the same thing - but each of those is managed by one player. Simply put, it's unnecessary.

(3) Equipment. For a high-level NPC to be competitive with a PC, they need to have equipment that's way beyond normal treasure amounts for a 4e PC. I don't want my group to get five sets of +4 armor after facing a group of 5 16th-level NPCs.

I'd far rather deal with the versimilitude issues and just settle it with, "Well, he's a badass." Then we move on. :)

-O
 

I agreed with everything you said except...

(3) Equipment. For a high-level NPC to be competitive with a PC, they need to have equipment that's way beyond normal treasure amounts for a 4e PC. I don't want my group to get five sets of +4 armor after facing a group of 5 16th-level NPCs.

If you're talking about 3.x, then I still agree with you, but I don't think this is necessary in 4e. (I drew up a 14th-level NPC based on a PC who died in a group I was in in 2e and he didn't seem weak at all.)
 

Aegeri

First Post
I agreed with everything you said except...

If you're talking about 3.x, then I still agree with you, but I don't think this is necessary in 4e. (I drew up a 14th-level NPC based on a PC who died in a group I was in in 2e and he didn't seem weak at all.)

He is talking about 3.5, where high level NPCs were basically high level PCs, so they needed all the same magical :):):):). In 4E it doesn't care to be honest about what monsters or NPCs have as they work with fixed statistics (in fact, it specifically encourages you not to give monsters magical equipment that alters its attacks/defenses).
 

GreyLord

Legend
I agree with most of the stuff concerning the changes between 3.X and 4e monsters and the ease of doing the stuff for the DM. I have experienced this myself and love how 4e does MONSTERS.

However, I wasn't the DM on this one, merely a player. The actions ended what was supposed to be a cool climactic game to 30th level.

Perhaps the DM handled this wrong, or maybe it was how the Players percieved it. I'll extrapolate in more detail with an explanation of what exactly happened.

The original plan back in August was to try to play for 30 sessions over 30 days, with a quick leveling scheme for a level per session. Well...we didn't quite do it in 30 days...but we had gotten up to level 24 near Thanksgiving Weekend.

It was based in Dark Sun. I was a Ranger with the Athasian Minstrel Theme. We had an Mul Arena Fighter with the Gladiator theme. Both me and the Fighter served a Warlord with the Noble Adept theme. However, we were normally on a mission for the City of Balic under a Templar. That character was actually a Warlock with the Templar theme, and the Sorcerer-King Pact. We also had a Thri-Keen Psion with the Elemental Priest theme.

Everything went well until the last mission. We felt the party was balanced alignment wise overall, and hadn't had problems despite the fact that the Templar was Evil, the Arena Fighter was unaligned, and the rest of us were good. We had our struggles, and were very nearly wiped out on several occasions (It was Dark Sun afterall) but with teamwork always survived.

The mission that came up was that we were to infiltrate a city and destroy a Sorcerer-Queen. That was pretty tough, actually really tough. It seemed to be simply a suggestion at the time by the Templar. For her explanation it was that the city was threatened by the Sorcerer Queen's forces, and that the diplomacy and voting rights of all could be threatened by her network of underhanded spies in Balic. This caused some other problems with the Dragon himself starting to threaten Balic unless someone stopped these machinations.

So we went to take out this Sorcerer-Queen. We got into the city, infiltrated the Palace, battled it up through the levels...and then we got a healing most of the way through. It appears the Templar had some sort of artifact that gave us a situation like we had a long rest, refreshing out powers, HP, and making it so we could go on when we had just about exhausted our resources...but still had a ways to go. We were told there was only one use (Daily Power of the Artifact...OR that it was an expendable).

So we finally make it to the throne room, do away with the Sorcerer-Queen and all the forces that were also in there in what was a HUGE climactic battle.

All Good...right?

That's when the fortunes turned. We were exhausted at that point, but we seemed victorious. At which point, the Templar ascended up the throne, seized the crown, and then used the artifact a SECOND TIME, but it ONLY refreshed her. She seized the city crown under the authority of Andropinis and ordered us all slain. Of course, it was basically just her and us at that point...and so we fought back.

Which led to the Mul being killed, the Noble unconscoius, and me and the Thri-Keen having to beat out of there before we too got killed. I managed to grab the Warlord, but the Thri-Keen beat it with 2 HP so really didn't have the strength to go across the room and grab anyone. We got out of there, but after that...then chaos reigned. The Mul player was actually okay with it, but the Warlord (also a girl) and the Thri-Keen Player stormed out of there.

They felt it was an unfair plot twist, especially because even after it was all said and done...we had done more damage to kill the Sorcerer-Queen/Templar of Andropinis when they were a PC, but obviously not after they healed and asceneded into the Sorcerer-Queen which was basically just something that happened in the moment.

After the ascension, the DM controlled the Templar Player's character as an NPC however...it appeared there was some behind the scenes work between the DM and the player.

Without those two...the campaign basically came to a halt and we haven't played since in Dark Sun or with that party. As far as I see it, that idea and game is now over.

I would say it is directly attributable to that incident, as that's what fired the players up.

So overall I agree with the entire Monsters and NOT PC's Idea...however in this instance it seems that perhaps for once that idea may not have been the best...or perhaps there is a better alternative to what the DM did.

Especially since we'll never finish up the 1-30th level idea now.
 

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